A-21, Tape 1 (203), Audio tape recording of the Committee on Allegations of Racial Discrimination in the Football Program at Syracuse University

This, these stars won't miss anything, Willie and, and are still to come. Um Potentially, you may have heard that this uh unique, interesting subset of the university community has no chairman. The, the presiding office is rotated by the tonight's cane to the up to the up

to the cave. Thank you. Yes, the proceedings here are taped, but if you would prefer not, and we mean it, we turn the tape off. Let's take notes. Let's take, um I suppose I might say with reasonable accuracy that you are a witness here tonight, but

it is apparent that you are also a participant to some of the things that have occurred and you can't escape the fact that you are a chancellor. And um I, I have decided unilaterally that it won't save us time and probably wouldn't mean too much to

try to distinguish between these roles and various others you might play. So if you don't mind, we won't, we won't distinguish, I don't know if you can answer questions. So now, gentlemen, have I forgotten to say something that should be said? Then let us proceed the,

the discussion is open to whoever lights the Floor, Mr Clark. Are you warming up? I'm just thinking, uh I'll kick it out here as you're probably aware we've had that. I think what, this is our sixth session and uh many aspects of this racial problem, many

aspects have been discussed through our series of meetings. And I think in order to uh uh get started here this evening on one train of thought, I, I should ask you, ask you if you were aware of racial problems on the football team upon your arrival

at Syracuse or, or shortly thereafter, or about when you did become aware of possible racial problems in connection with the football team. Well, I think Bill, sometime in the first couple of months of my tenure here as I was reviewing various things with, uh particularly with

central administrators, Jim Carl and I discussed some of the general background of the, the athletic program at Syracuse University and particularly the uh in that discussion, the specific problem of the uh the interests of some numbers of players and the possibility of a black coach was

discussed so that I was and where her uh sometime during the uh first football season that I was here, which would have been during the first few months, that this was an issue and I was uh of the opinion that it was an issue that was

in some way, being dealt with that there was a search going on. Although Jim I think was very honest in indicating that, that, that, that was not a, an issue that was moving very rapidly. Of course, this is only one of many issues, uh, which has

come up. And I wonder if I find your knowledge of, uh, possible problems of, did you as an individual take any initiative, uh, to, to dig further into this or, and again, I don't want to put words in your mouth. But is this something which you,

which you left primarily to the uh athletic group? Well, with one exception, and that I indicated to Jim Carlton that uh from my own experience at another institution, I was, was fully supportive of the concept that we should have a black coach and that uh if

uh he felt it was appropriate to indicate my support of that concept, he should do so. And I, I don't know, I think there might have been discussions in which he did mention that the other key problems uh that have been raised by the black athletes,

particularly in uh surrounding the spring practice. We're essentially uh in terms of complete substance, fairly new to me, in terms of the specifics here, they're not new problems. I've heard, I've heard them discussed on other campuses four at that early stage. When you first became aware

last fall, did you feel that the athletic department could be left to its own resources to get a black coach? You, you just told us that you supported this demand. Did you feel that if you uh just expressed your support through the doctor Car or otherwise

to the athletic department that a black coach would be procured? Well, I felt the first thing that we had to establish that I had to establish at uh at Syracuse University was that I did not believe that the athletic program was a program that should be

run directly from the chancellor's office that uh in the channels of the institution. Uh Jim Carlton was the man to whom the director of athletics reported there had been apparently um some feeling at least that that was a channel that could be overlooked from time to

time. And I wanted to establish very clearly that in my viewpoint, it wasn't a channel that should be overlooked. So essentially, uh the approach that we took toward the black coach situation was really to put uh Jim Carlton on the spot as the man that would

uh be pressing on that both with the coaching staff and as my representative or as a university representative really on the athletic governing board where this was also discussed. So I did not, I didn't want to take direct action at the time that I was trying

to indicate that athletics wasn't something that was operated out of the chancellor's office. When was the next time I'm not interested so much in the specific date. Is it general month or so that you discussed this with Doctor Callner getting a black couch. Well, I think

the, I think really you could just, you could trace our discussions of uh the black coach question by uh by finding out uh the dates immediately before and immediately after uh the meetings of the athletic governing board during the uh fall and winter. I don't remember

for sure that this issue was discussed at each of those meetings, but it was discussed at a number of them. And uh Jim and I discussed uh the problem uh both in anticipation of those meetings and follow the meetings. Did you ever receive from the players

or a representative of the players? A written statement of the allegations of differential treatment that is discrimination prior to April. Um ever at any time since she came. Of course, well, it may be, I'm a little confused on the written nature. It may be that the

first and most complete written document that I had was really the statement of complaint which came through the uh the Syracuse Human Rights Commission. But the uh the issues were very clearly described to me and uh and fairly consistently described to me by the group of

black players with whom I met in April just the day that they decided to uh to boycott spring practice or not arrive at spring practice. So they, the specific nature of those allegations uh to the extent that we could begin to look into them was uh

really made clear to me sometime in mid April and these uh essentially related to medical treatment, uh academic counseling, name calling with particular reference to the w to the name boy. Um some kind of mixed feeling with not a great deal of enthusiasm in general, but

on the part of some that there have been some stacking of players to uh to have blacks competing with blacks for single positions on the team. Um Some allegations about the assignment of blacks to travel squads and uh really the complete uh fairly complete list that

I uh think is also now before us in response in response to those at the time and, and the question that uh in April, of course, of the black coach, which was still an unresolved issue. It was a, it was an oral presentation that well, that's

my, is that your recollection J there is a written document from that meeting in April. Um It was a, it was a clear presentation. I don't I it was, it could well have been written, I've, I've had no doubt about the, the problems since that meeting

in April. No, I want to distinguish here between grievances, the grievance of a team against a coach and your financial treatment associated with the and they did on that occasion. Yes, their, their basic concerns uh starting at that time with the black coach as a primary

issue was also that uh were also that blacks were receiving differential treatment in these areas since you indicated that uh the demand, the request for a black coach. And the first one that, that came to your attention earlier in the fall, when did you feel that

this, that the process by which this request was being met was, was stymied to a point where the traditional channel should be transcended across by your office where the chancellor's office would be required to exert more influence than you might like to on the athletic department.

Well, I think that the, uh when I was finally aware, in my own mind that the, that the channels weren't working was when the suggestion of the athletic governing board, which had been made sometime prior to spring practice and which made some recognition of the fact

that it was apparently unlikely that there would be a permanent addition to the coaching staff by spring practice and an effort should be made to get a black coach for the spring practice. And there was some uh suggestion that one of the uh pro ale a

graduate of Syracuse might be willing to do this. Uh when uh when Floyd Little became the uh the um person to meet this need. And when it became clear that uh he was only here temporarily and that there did not seem to be any communication really

in an effective way between Floyd and most of the Black players. And when they're um appeared to be no real recognition that, uh this wasn't a good step forward on the part of the coaching staff. It, it appeared to me that, uh, there would probably have

to be a little central pushing on this problem. Then this was after the boycott began after the black players didn't show up the spring. Well, the first, the first day of, uh, the day I believe, following Floyd Little's the appearance of Floyd Little's interview in the

paper, uh Mr Carl and I were invited to meet with the black athletes at Manley Fieldhouse, which we did. Uh this was where their concerns were expressed and uh where I took it upon myself to uh to commit to them that there would be a black

coach by the fall, the opening of fall practice, which meant of course, by that kind of a commitment that I also committed myself to, uh to be involved to the extent that uh that commitment was met. It should, it should be clear. I think that the,

the commitment about the black coach was a, was a three pronged kind of thing. Number one, there was, there was nobody who wanted to coach just because he was black. Everyone wanted a qualified coach who also was black. This was therefore meant that it should be

a coach who would fit Ben's coaching staff, uh who would meet the criteria that Ben would use to pick any coach. Uh There are, there also was some suspicion on the part of the blacks because of the fact that Floyd Little had been presented as uh

as meeting there, uh their own criteria and they didn't feel that he did. Uh There was a suspicion on their part that the uh adding a black coach to the staff might not really add somebody with whom they could communicate and could, who could help them

communicate with the rest of the staff. So they ask that they also have an opportunity to, to review uh the people that Ben was suggesting and I indicated to them the same general kind of a um statement that I really made to the committee that was

advising me on the selection of an academic vice president that uh we would certainly not hire a coach who did not meet Ben's approval. We would not hire a coach that he did not want, but neither would we hire a black coach that the black players

did not want. So there was sort of a mutual veto if you will with the concept that Ben was fine when the last analysis was to appoint a coach that he wanted, who also had the secondary endorsement. Uh There seemed to be very little uh disagreement

on that concept uh with the black athletes, they felt, I think that this is the way that it had to be done if there's no point of having a coach. If the coach, the head coach didn't want it so those that was the general framework uh

that we agreed upon and was the general framework that uh Mr Carl and I then explained to uh Mr Decker and Mr Schwartz. Well, there was no disagreement from the black athletes, but was there any from the coaching staff from Mr Decker? Well, I'm sure that

from the coach's point of view, the uh the proposal that he would hire a coach uh with some kind of an approval of a group of his players was a new concept and not a particularly uh uh desirable concept, but he did not uh indicate that

this made his task impossible or that he, uh, didn't think it could be done. He agreed to proceed under those kinds of ground rules, in your opinion, has the university met its commitments to the players with reference to the black coach question, uh, with reference to

the, uh, to the one black coach. Uh Yes, I think we have a man who, uh, was first extremely acceptable to the coach and to the athletic director and was secondly acceptable to the player representative and to the players. Uh I took the additional step partly

because the uh, the uh procedures had broken down in terms of making this man available to the black players. I took the additional step which we had not discussed of, uh having uh, Doctor Johnson meet Mr Jones to visit with him, but Doctor Johnson was not

really a participant in this veto or approval process. Uh But I and I think that Carlman Jones, uh, does, uh represent a significant, uh, meeting of that commitment and your comments would extend to the procedures that were used together. I would have preferred if the procedures

had been followed without my having to interfere in the procedures. But uh with the fact of my interference, the commitment was made was met to the players. Just come. I've been kind of concerned about uh the definition of the situation to use a good sociological phrase.

Um It appears that uh the action by the head coach was an action taken because the boycotting of the spring practice was a violation of coaching authority and therefore it is impossible to run football team. The football players can decide which practices they will absent themselves

from and which play practices they will attend. Um If that was the definition, then I could understand the suspension of the black athletes. Um Apparently you define their boycotting of the brain practice differently. And could you share with us your concept of what that boycotting meant?

Well, II, I think that my understanding of the um of the coach's concern about discipline as you put. It is also uh one that I would support in terms of uh the uh logical possibility of suspension. Um The coach and I may differ in terms of

whether these young men had sufficient cause to take what is a very serious step. He would feel that they, that they had not really exhausted the possibilities within the squad. I'm not sure whether they had exhausted them or not, but I can understand how they might

have felt that they had exhausted them and therefore they felt this was a step, very serious that they needed to take. No, I think probably the place where Ben and I started with some difference and where I'm persuaded that he and I reached an agreement is

the question of whether a person once takes this kind of a step and is then properly suspended, whether he has then eliminated himself from consideration. Forevermore, uh I think probably initially the coach felt that this breach of discipline was sufficient that uh the elimination should be

permanent. Uh I think that from our discussions, I have uh convinced Ben to some extent that in an educational institution, if you uh follow the rule of one mistake and you're out, uh, we wouldn't end up with very many studentss and probably no faculty members or

administrators. And we simply have to use mistakes as part of our educational venture. Um This is one of the reasons that uh I was supportive of a reinstatement decision or a reinstatement process which had some minimal teeth in it if you will on both sides because

of the fact that the coach was being moved from an initial position which uh in which this breach of discipline was defined as almost irreparable to a position in which it was something that you could salvage. But in order for him to move that way, he

had to have some uh recognition on the part of the suspended players that they also had taken a serious step that required a little reparations if you will or whatever a good term is. It was. So it was an effort to have a little give and

take on both sides. So I think maybe our, our primary difference is as Ben and I started discussing the spring boycott. There were two, number one, did these players really have enough grievances that it was even conceivable that they might think of doing that. I can,

I, I feel I can understand why they would take that step. And number two, once somebody takes that kind of step, is he beyond salvation? And uh and that really, I think Ben and I uh started a little different there, but I think he very wholeheartedly

uh decided that uh salvation was and should be possible. I have to ask you another question on this without another theological book. And this would be this, you know, this is more administrative um from what you tell me, um you had to in effect sort of

turn the coach around. Now, there is a chain of command. You've mentioned that uh Vice Chancellor Carlton, this is your first man in this area. Who else in your judgment is the senior officer of the senior institution, who else in your judgment could have had a

tempering effect upon the coach because, you know it, I agree with you. You couldn't run the university if you had to run the football team all the time. And one of the investigative, uh, questions I have is where along the line could this decision have been

temperate? And I haven't seen it, uh, as we've been looking at it, uh if you can't answer, who should have had a tempering effect, could you tell us way along the line? Now, you think in the administrative structure, tempering effect could have come about? Well, I

can, I can answer that both uh in a uh should have and should in the future, but I would temper it with uh what I said uh perhaps before you came in. Chuck that one problem that uh I think I discovered when I got here at

Syracuse was that the football coach was used to working in when problems arose directly with the office of the chancellor. So there was a necessity to attempt to change that. Obviously, the uh the man to whom the football coach really reports is the director of athletics

in this particular situation. And I'm, I assume in past situations, the director of athletics did not have the expectation that he would be effective in dealing with the football coach and he apparently um lost some general enthusiasm for that. Mr Carlton was not greatly uh persuaded

that he would be effective in this problem, but he kept giving it a try. And I think we have reached a point now where that part of the chain of command is fairly well understood. I think we have not yet reached the, uh the point although

we may be reaching it where Mr Decker sees his responsibility as Mr Carlton's first line administrative officer in dealing with athletic problems. So, so you would, would, would it be fair to conclude that in addition to the, oh to the problem of, of the substantive issue,

if there, if there's any substance to the charges that the players are bringing, there is a subsidiary issue of the establishment of an ordinary chain of command. And I think we're, I think we're beginning to approach that although I'm not sure yet that we have, uh

that we have fully convinced Mr Decker that he has a role as an advocate of administration in addition to his very important role as an advocate of the coaches whom he serves. And this is uh this is a very similar problem to what for example, a

high school principal has, who is on the one hand supposed to be uh concerned with his teachers and representing them to the administration. On the other hand, uh he's representing the administration to the teachers and it does put him in some difficult positions, but that's part

of the administration in terms of uh tempo toward change. How would you characterize the responses of the athletic department to your uh um interventions and working around? And of course, the issue with the black coach and uh second the uh issue of the establishment of the

chain of command and then finally, the uh uh substantive uh issue of uh complaint to the football players, black football players. Well, I, there's one thing that, that I think needs to be very, made, very clear if I think there is no reasonable or perhaps even

no somewhat unreasonable order, if you will, that I might give to Ben, that Ben wouldn't accept an attempt to carry out. Uh Ben would want it to be made very clear that that's what he was doing, but he would do it. Oh, this is not acceptable

to me because I don't think it, it produces the doing of things with the same kind of uh enthusiasm and quality that one generates if he's doing it uh for broader reasons in a direct order, but consistently, Ben has uh has been perfectly willing to do

whatever I felt he should do. The tempo of change when we started on. This problem was extremely slow. Oh, there was a great deal of reluctance to uh to do other than consider the question of whether or not I or Jim Carlton, uh was prepared to

give an order to do something without really a great deal of substantive discussion about what was right to be done. Uh, I think as we wrestled with this problem and worked with it and tried to think it through together during the summer that, uh, we began

to generate, uh, a much greater, uh, willingness and, uh, a much greater effort on the part of, uh, coach Schwartzwalder, particularly to try to think some of these things through in terms of his problems as a coach. And, uh, I think that uh many of the

understandings, many of the concepts that the Black players felt Ben was not concerned about have now reached the point where he is of his own volition, concerned about them. So the tempo was extremely slow to start with and uh I think uh has increased, I'm still

not sure and this is perhaps this isn't the time to judge in the middle of a football season, uh where the coach has a number of specific and immediate problems, how much uh initiation of response to these kinds of problems strictly on his own understanding of

them. We're going to see. I'm hopeful that we have reached a point where we will begin to see some that remains to be seen. Can I, can I get one more specific one? You, you said earlier that the, the on the problem of the black coach

that the uh process broke down, uh would, would you describe what procedures were established? In other words, what was supposed to happen? And uh what actually did happen? The uh well, what, what was supposed to happen was that a candidate or candidates for this coaching position

were to be brought to the campus? The invitation of the coach, these candidates were to be interviewed and reviewed by the coaching, the coach and his staff, the director of athletics. However, they would ordinarily review a coach. At the same time, arrangements were to be made

for the player representative who at that time was uh Al Sullivan, a graduate student. Now in the faculty at Minnesota, Al Sullivan was at the same time to have an opportunity to interview candidates or candidates or a candidate or candidates while they were here. And there

was a, well, the concept was that the player representative would be the key person. I think it was certainly understood that Al Sullivan would arrange for this candidate to visit with some or all of the black players. Although al was the one responsible for seeing the

candidates and the commitment was made that he would see them then before any offer was made to a coach. Uh Mr Carlton or I were to have the reaction from Mr Sullivan to the candidate for whom an offer might be made. What happened was that Mr

Carlton learned on a Friday afternoon, I believe that uh Mr Jones was going to be in town on Saturday. We called uh Doctor Sullivan who was leaving town Friday evening and who had heard nothing about, uh Mr jones' visit. So the visit was conducted without uh

the involvement of either Al Sullivan or any of the Black players. When, uh I saw Al Sullivan upon his return to the campus. I agreed with him that this had been a breach in the procedures and we then sent Al Sullivan and DJ Horrell to Florida

to talk with Mr Jones at his home and we put a hold on the appointment, which by that time had been recommended until such time as Al Sullivan reported back to me, what kind of interpretation would you place upon that, what you call a breach procedures?

Well, I've been assured that it was carelessness. Uh and uh in view of the fact that uh there was no strong disagreement from either Ben or Jim Decker when I indicated that in keeping with our discussion, I was going to send to then down to Florida

and that there would be no appointment until I had a reaction from them and that if it was an unfavorable reaction, we there would not be an appointment. Um They responded to this, uh indicating that the, I guess that was the way it should be. And,

and so I assume it was careless in, in view of the uh fact that there had been a boycott to achieve this, this goal agreement. Uh And it's been a rather careful establishment as you describe, establishing the procedures where you uh accepting of that kind of

uh and, and the potential. Uh II, I think I must say that the experience which everyone knew was potentially uh uh confronting a university and dealing with black athletes. Uh uh Were you willing to accept uh at face value, the uh explanation of carelessness or? Oh,

what were your, what were your other thoughts that? Well, I was uh I was uh I was very disturbed by the carelessness. I was, uh I felt that if it, if it was carelessness as it was presented, it was carelessness that was not calculated to resolve,

but rather to intensify some of the problems. And uh regardless of what the cause was, uh I indicated that we simply, I indicated to the coach directly that we simply would have to uh pay more attention to agreements in which we were a part of this

was going to just intensify as a problem. It was an extremely unfortunate bit of carelessness because the man that Ben had found was uh a man that met everyone's, um, had everyone's support after they met him. And what should have been a, uh uh kind of

a triumph of working together for perhaps the first time, uh ended up in a only a semi triumph at best. All right. Just g we need a little help from you in terms of expectation. Oh, I'm certainly not speaking for the committee, but as I reviewed

some of the material that we will come across. Uh I would make a judgment, not quite as gentle as carelessness on some of it won't be harsh. I'll call it insensitivity. Uh Now, if we find insensitivity and if we also find the absence of as much

movement as you would like to think has taken place uh in the coaching staff and in the athletic department to deal with these kinds of situations because none of us need a recurrence to this. Um How much do you expect the committee to deal with this?

Now, we're mindful of two kinds of careers. There is a career in a coach which is something that I don't take lightly, but there is a career of the playoffs which I don't take lightly. So none of us are in the business of career assassination. But

at the same time, how do we protect an institution from the reoccurrence of this if we don't find? And this is hypothetical. Now, we don't find that has been the kind of sensitivity that you would hope has already taken place. How do we handle this as

we began to move toward our report in a way that can be helpful? Well, the then there's another, there's another step to your uh hypothesis. I guess that would be a, would be the question of the degree to which this group might decide there is a

possibility of the development of sensitivity. And let me assume for the moment that this committee in consultation with its own members and in consultation with anyone else uh who has had similar kinds of sensitivity problems that have perhaps been solved has a series of proposals that

they think uh I have a chance number one to create some sensitivity where there isn't now enough sensitivity and uh to do it. Uh oh in ways that can be in some way reviewed as time goes on, I would, I would think that this committee should

make a very clear cut and very, very uh firm kinds of recommendations along that line. In other words, if you find insensitivity, oh, I think the university, number one needs to have this kind of a committee. If it finds that, say so. And I think number

two, that uh this committee should either then be able to say that it has some ideas on how you overcome sensitivity or it has some ideas on others who can do that and that this university had better either follow those ideas or get some people in

as consultants to do it. And I would feel those kinds of th that kind of thing is what is, what I would feel very appropriate. I, I've said a number of times and I would want to say uh again to the committee that I, I'm not

at all. Uh Well, I don't believe we have at the moment any kind of a resolution to this problem, the fact that we may be uh, playing football, the fact that we may have a committee studying this, the fact that the things may be, uh, fairly

quiet about the issue doesn't make it disappear. It's still here. And I agree with you that as long as we're going through this now, let's really try and see if we can't solve it because we don't wanna go through it again in a, in a line

with this. And I guess I'm asking you a question, Doctor will, how do you, and, and you didn't answer this question quite at the university Senate meeting. How do you perceive into collegiate football in the context of university education? Iii I keep coming back to that,

uh, you know, understanding it in the context trying to appreciate the coaches attitudes and the players' attitudes. Well, there are, there are a number of people who, uh, as Paul Hartley said today are unlike Paul who have, um, who do have extremely strong competitive, uh, to

something as a part of themselves, some, some exercise this kind of, uh, of competitiveness, uh, through student politics, uh, some exercise it through athletics, uh, some exercise it through a variety of other ways. In my view, an intercollegiate athletic program in which coaches see themselves as

educators and in which coaches work with young men to number one hone their competitive ability in a certain field, uh, to the highest quality possible through a number of personal sacrifices and hard work in which men have the opportunity and participation to win and to lose

and learn how to react to those kinds of things in which, uh, men or women because there are athletics for women, uh, learn some of the, uh, concepts of working together as a team, uh, in an effort. Uh, all of these have in my way of

thinking if approached on an educational basis, have, uh, have very good educational benefits. I personally, uh, as a member of an intercollegiate athletic team, uh, and crew at Washington felt that it was a, uh, was a very important part of my education in terms of a

number of things that I learned about myself in terms of my ability to do certain things and to not do certain things learned about the way in which, uh, men have to work together and can work together. I learned about the way in which a good

coach can, uh, can inspire people to, uh, to go beyond themselves, both in their athletics and in the rest of their, their total life. And I, I just think it's a kind of an experience that does offer very good educational possibilities. It can, it can offer

none if it's not a bad athletic program, uh, can have negative educational points of view. And I, I still remember with a, uh great deal of shuttering, a very famous coach from, not from the Midwest. He was on the west when I knew him who, uh,

stood before a high school athletic banquet of the school of which I was a principal and proceeded to explain to these young men that the important thing was to win and that if you had to bend a few rules to do that and you didn't get

caught and you won, that was what it was all about. Now, an athletic program under that coach I would feel is counter education. But unfortunately, there are very, very few of those. Would you comment further on the possibilities of conducting the kind of athletic program that

you described the positive kind, uh, in foot in what we might call big time football in America in the 19 seventies. Are you asking about the institutional kinds of arrangements that are made or the personal arrangements just to talk about the whole big time football? Are

they, are they cultural, uh, pressures and values such that it is possible to, to have a really positive program? Um, yeah, I just, I think it's ok. Uh, as a matter of fact, um, I've had, I've had a very interesting, uh, very interesting opportunity with this

controversy which has brought me, uh, into closer contact with, uh, coaches here than, uh, than might otherwise have been the case. And, uh, with a position at Ohio State which brought me into very close contact with, uh, with another big time football coach and a big

time football team. And I'd have to say that, uh, watching Ohio State, which certainly is big time football and watching the coaching staff and the young men having had the opportunity of traveling with them occasionally. I'm watching them. I think that, uh, Woody Hayes in work

and his staff in working with those young men is doing an extremely fine educational job. Uh, he's producing men. He's not producing them. He's working with men who have a very high, oh, a very good record in terms of graduation from university. He has had at

least 15% of his graduating seniors each year go on directly into professional schools, law, medicine, dentistry. Um, uh, a look at the roster of people with whom he's dealt, I think would tend to demonstrate that, uh, they have by and large done a very fine educational

job in addition to the football job, uh, people who talk about the inability of a university to have quote, big time athletics, unquote and big time academics. Um, my, uh, the example I always used in the big 10 and I don't know if, uh, just what

example I should switch to, but I think most of us would recognize that there is big time academics at Michigan and, uh, Michigan is consistently the university in the big 10 that, that wins the so-called overall athletic point, uh, championship in the big 10. Um, I,

I think you, you can have both, uh, you can't have, uh, you can have, uh, small time athletics and big time academics and vice versa. They're not totally dependent upon each other, but a high quality educational intercollegiate athletic program can I think enhance a university. So,

I, no, I don't, I don't see anything, uh, that makes it impossible to have to be in big time athletics and, and not be a good, big time university. Just told me this is a question I've asked others and I'd just like to ask you for

the record. Uh This is not an anti athletic question, but it is, you get the facts. You've said, hard working, personal sacrifice, experience of winning and losing and being able to accept that experience of working together as a team with some of the values of intercollegiate

athletics. In your judgment, the black players, all the white players and Syracuse University football team this year exhibit these beds not to the extent I would have liked. No, but your AM AMS position is that, that it, it could have happened in view of what you've

seen elsewhere. And as a matter of fact, uh without your asking me, uh uh let me indicate that uh I was somewhat troubled as I visited our football team in the locker room last year, I was somewhat troubled by the rather pugnacious quality of our basketball

team. Um They're obviously are some uh some elements of difficulty in the athletic program. This could be a number of things we may, for example, in the, in terms of the kind of support which this university is able to provide to intercollegiate athletics. We may be

asking our coaches and our young men to overcome. Um, uh, we, we may be presenting some almost insurmountable obstacles to the athletic director and to a whole series of coaches, uh, through the kinds of, uh provisions that we make for them in the athletic program and

the kinds of provisions that are made for those with whom they're competing. So I don't, this is not something that I wanna pin on coaches, but it's a problem, dude, your, your opinion, do we have an athletic program in the sense of an educational part of

the institution which happens to use competition as an educational tool other than in crew. True Washingtonian speaking. Yeah, I'm not, I can't tell John from a review of the minutes of the athletic governing board that the policies and directions and review that that body is giving

the athletic director and the things for which it's making him accountable, force him to face that issue very strongly. And I would say that probably it has not been faced here as strongly as it should be. Ok. And another question, what, what in your opinion would,

would constitute uh racism? Well, I think there are, I think there are two in my view, at least there are two kinds of racism. One is a, is what I guess we would call bigotry, which is very overt and then is which results from somebody for

some reason or another, even either having a hatred of or some kind of a, uh feeling toward people of different races, uh which she expresses in a variety of ways, uh through words, through actions and so forth, clearly, the other kind of racism which is much

more widespread. And, uh, I guess I tend to borrow from Chuck Willie, the word he used earlier of insensitivity, uh which is uh simply to uh through lack of, of uh awareness and lack of thoughtfulness to do things consistently which uh which uh cause discomfort and

which in some way, reduce the, the humanity or the pride of those with whom and to whom you do them. I may, for example, uh once uh call somebody uh call a black boy, uh I may continue to do that. And unless somebody says to me

that uh that's not that that is a uh is an insult for a variety of reasons. If I understand that and then continue to be insensitive to it and don't pay attention to it, then I think I'm slipping from what was originally unconscious, an unconscious problem

into what could be a conscious problem. And if I start out originally knowing for sure that something was insulting and continued to do it, uh then I guess I'd be starting out from a position of bigotry, the real, the real concern to me as I as

I uh try to think through and as I've tried to think through uh some of the charges that uh the young black students have made about the football coaching staff is a question of, to what extent this problem grows from insensitivity to one or another minority

groups. And to what extent it might simply grow from some kind of insensitivity to uh some of the feelings and some of the uh aspirations of young men in general today. Uh One thing that troubles me as I have reviewed um the football coaching staff at

Syracuse University, is it in general? It's been a very stable group. Uh This can be a testimony to the coach. On the other hand, it, uh it means there has not been a lot of young blood flowing through that coaching staff. I think Carmen Jones is

probably uh the first edition straight out of college for some time. And he brings a, uh he brings a young attitude in addition to any other attitudes he may bring, which I think are important. Were, were you aware of uh a, a number of events of

the uh in, in any of your, your 10 years uh chance to aware of uh community feeling around the taking of uh number 44 the reassignment of number 44 no to uh and um transition with, with sure or of the uh well, you see, see, I

I'm trying to illustrate a problem. I think that it, when, but the, the other one is, uh, or of the, the 1963 I believe it was 62 or 63 demonstrations. Uh when uh uh Syracuse University was playing segregated football teams or teams which continue to be

segregated. I've heard, uh I've heard reports of uh a few incidents. Uh I don't know if it was 63 but connected with some Southern games particularly. I, I've, I've had the, uh, um, the feeling that there's been an impression that the problem just started and, uh,

I've had the impression that, uh, individuals have been held up. Uh, and then the lack of information has been given, you know, to the, to the public, for instance, Ernie Davis is held up as an example, but no one seems to want to point out that,

uh, I guess his name, uh, Syracuse went to the Orange Bowl and Ernie Davis had to stay in a separate motel and no one spoke up about that. They just applauded his playing in the game and I, I would quite agree that that kind of insensitivity

is racism. Yeah, I would, uh, I, I think I, I have not really heard anybody indicate that the problem was brand new. I think that the brand new emphasis upon the problem is the, uh, is the brand new and, and very healthy concern of the, of

the young black student that, uh, that this, that this not be something you just slide over. So that, that focuses on something that's undoubtedly not new. I'm sure we can go back many years, John and uh pick out isolated instances where some of these things would

happen, but they're not isolated if they begin to form a pattern. No, no, this is true. However, uh at least I'm of the opinion that much of our discussion in these meetings has centered around a period of time, roughly two years ago, when these events reached

proportions such that, uh, at that point, they had been called to everyone's attention one way or another and certainly something had or should have been done about. I'm sure we can go back, as I said before, many years, we can pick up a situation like 44

like Ernie Davis and things of this nature. But, uh again, this is why I wanted to try to pin it down the very first night of our meeting that if we, if we don't try to pin these things down, then we can keep moving back off

into areas, uh, years and years and years ago where certainly these uh instances were important. But, uh, this, I've been looking pretty much in terms of a couple of years ago based on our discussions. Well, I, I think the key thing, at least that, that I

have to keep feeling as I've tried to deal with this problem is that these particular eight young men who now have become the center of a dispute, have not suddenly sprung out of the earth as, as eight troublemakers in Syracuse University, but there is some tradition

and not tradition or some history which leads to these events which, which go away beyond these men. And I, I think this is one very unfortunate thing that many people lose sight of. Uh I would guess that probably the eight black athletes uh are at least

equal with me in terms of the, the kind of male which, uh is coming in in response to this situation. And they're, they're being, I think unjustly defi uh defined as people who created a problem all by themselves. And I don't, I don't think this is

right. They have, they have reacted to the problem as they see it in a different way. But the question of, uh, well, the six part, uh set of articles and sports illustrated, which I guess was two or three years ago, uh highlighted and, and, uh spoke

to many of the same kinds of problems that we're talking about now and spoke to them, to them back through some history. Uh Mr Chancellor II, I don't mean to interrupt you, take these, the discussion of for the last 10, 15 minutes and uh apply it

to your charge to which was, and do you know what the chart was? Uh, we were to uh investigate allegations regarding racial discrimination? Um, can you tell us what racial discrimination then means in that phrase, well, in my, I ask, because it appears to be, uh,

at least a, a primary charge to the committee. I would, I would feel that it would be uh, the responsibility of this group to determine or to review two aspects, two kinds if you will of racial discrimination. Number one is a question of whether or not

there is overt racial discrimination. Has something happened to this young man because he's black, that didn't happen to this young man because it was white and this could, because he was white, this could be racial discrimination up or down. Yeah. And that, that's one kind of,

of racial discrimination. Now, the second thing that I think this committee needs to concern itself with because I'm persuaded that many of these things can't be demonstrated and that nice, neat factual way. So the second question is, are there practices or are there procedures, are there

relationships between and among coaches and players which might reasonably lead to some people believing there is racial discrimination against them, whether there really is or not? Um, I mean, might be interpreted, might be interpreted by it. And this then, I guess, um, for example, um, the

question of, uh, I don't think that, uh, that any of us can really, unless we were coaches and we present all the time, can really know for sure. For example, uh, the precise reason that, uh, one player was switched from one position on Thursday to another

one on Friday or over some of these statements. But I think we can pay some attention to the degree to which players in general know what is happening to players, how decisions are made and whether they have, whether they have an understanding of what's happening so

that whether they like it or not, they know why. If there are, if there are large numbers of things happening to players on a football team and they don't know why they're happening, then they could well begin to assume it's discrimination when in fact, it might

be something else. But the uh lack of understanding about why things happen is as serious a problem in this sort of a situation as is the as is the event themselves. Um I felt as an administrator that I'm not in the last analysis that I'm not

so concerned, let somebody agree with what I do, but I am very concerned that I do as good and complete a job as I can to explain to people why I did what I did and on what grounds I behave. Um It seems to me that

the lack just as an example, the lack of that sort of a framework, if it does, if it is lacking, can lead to the kinds of uh misunderstandings which could lead somebody to say it's discrimination even though it is. No, no. Thank you. I think that's

very quick uh, what do these words mean? How will I say? We, we've got some problems with the, with the county Human Rights Commission and perhaps a state, um, not to mention the Federal, I, I doubt, uh, if, if we cancel all the football games, it

could become international that. Um, I'm, I, I don't know whether there is many concerned but I am concerned about, uh, our, our relations with these groups. Um, I, I wonder if it will be possible for us to distinguish successful between at least two kinds of discrimination.

Um And we have relations with these people either through a report or perhaps conversation or something of that kind or, or are they talking mostly about overt discrimination? Well, I can only only state an opinion as a result of the uh of the results of our

conversations with the local and the state commissions and really only then with, with the staff, two staff members of each commission, these, these groups in my view are not essentially interested in proving um taking a list of 15 items and ending up with 10 of them

being untrue and five of them being true as much as they are interested in the institution uh analyzing as best it can, what uh what lies behind those allegations and developing to use a term that they use very often an affirmative action plan to overcome those

problems. Um So that I don't think it makes much difference, don if you really resolve that there are misunderstandings that there is insensitivity or that there is unconscious racism or that there is bigotry as much as it is that you resolve an attempt to define for

the university. What are the components that led to these allegations? And what is an affirmative plan of action to try to overcome them? I think that's all a commission wants now. Um I say all as if that were easy, I'm not gonna change the subject. It's

the subject of discrimination, but I, I'm gonna veer off a little bit. Um, you presumably have made your own investigation as chancellor of these incidents. Um, I have two here. One is, uh, when there's a kind of instinctive reaction, why don't you tell us what the

scar is so we can save a lot of time. The other one is, I don't wanna know what you, what opinion you have because I'd like to form my own and in the interests of something or other. I'm, I weighed heavily on the second, but I

would, but I would like to ask this question, um, based on your own investigation of these events and these attitudes and all the problems I will kick. Um, can you make what you think would be a constructive suggestion as to procedure who we ought to talk

to? Are, are we doing it wrong or anything of this kind? Do you have any advice on this matter? I really don't one, I, I do not, I do not ask, what did you find out? That's not my question. My question is, do you have any

counsel, advice and counsel as of? And we had more experience with this than we have? Well, I have, uh, I have an opinion that, uh, you may have, you may either have already reached or be in the process of reaching some of the general opinions which

I have, which are that, uh that there are some positive steps which, which might be recommended to deal with this problem, whether it's misunderstanding racism or what have you and some of them, I think require an understanding of the, of the mission as, as some people

see it, at least of the athletic program, the group that has perhaps been wow, ignored to some extent as be as best I know in this process, uh because they probably are not very well informed on specifics, but they should be well informed on policies. Uh

Is the, uh the athletic governing board? I would think that uh some of the questions that, uh for example, such as Joe asked me about the purposes of an athletic program, some of the questions about the uh um the role of a coach, uh and uh

as an educator, some of these things, I would, I would think that uh certainly one, one body that's going to have to be involved in any solution to this problem is that board and I would think that it would be worthwhile to get some of their

views on the problem. May I express an opinion? Sure. With the idea that you mean you would correct me? I hope if I'm wrong, I, I was on the athletic board for quite some time. No, it, it was, it was way, way back and it was

very hard work to bring it along at all without revolutionary techniques. So I, if I were to assert that, uh I think we, we have an educating problem there. Do you think that was unfair? No, but, but, but I would say that I'm not sure this

committee can assert that unless it uh talks to some of the members of that board. I understand. I, I had the impression that we may teach them more than they get to teach us. But I'm, I'm willing to do this. Well, you see if we're, if

we're talking about how do you anticipate and uh overcome these kinds of problems in the future? And if we're then looking at the uh the channels, if you will, as we were earlier, a one of the agents for solution needs to be that bored. I think

this is an opinion. And if the board in your view as you discuss them is presently a good agent for that solution, then you should be able to say that if the board is part of the problem, then you should be able to say that. And

uh if the board is part of the problem, you should be able to say what might be some of the ways in which the board could become less of, of a problem in that nature. Now, the other, the other people, I guess who uh really haven't

uh probed into this in great detail would be uh the representatives of the two commissions. Um They however, have been more concerned with conciliation to the stages that they went through rather than investigation. I doubt that they could do much more than review the procedures as

I reviewed them today. But they might also be able to indicate what they look for in a solved situation. Um What kind of, uh what kind of, uh of a situation at a university? And do they see as a quote ideal situation unquote? Do you think

it's appropriate for us to approach them if we choose to? Oh, that should that be done through a public relations officer at the university? Oh, I think that could be done by, uh, if you would get back to the seas, for example, I don't think Mr

Carlton could do that very easily is the only chance you been here an hour and a half. Let's, let's try to sort of, you know, it's a short meeting. Let's try to bring our questions to the for and get them answered. So the four, the four

colleges that participate, Penn state of time, Penn and West Virginia. Uh I'm fairly well acquainted with the official kind of arrangements that are made. I'm interested though in the kinds of um uh persuasion uh techniques and the kinds of ways that chancellors and presidents deal with

each other in relation to extraordinary situations. I'm thinking particularly with the prospect of Red Shirt and a couple of players which is illegal according to regulations of four schools, what kinds of, to be very frank, what kinds of arrangements could be made at this point if,

if this was possible, if this was accepted? Well, let me first say facetiously, Joe that we uh had a, we came to a conclude a beautiful conclusion about a month ago that uh the rest of the uh the rest of the black athletes should join Duane

Walker and all have their appendix removed because it is, it is not illegal under the arrangement for a man to have an ex an extra year if he's out of season for medical reasons. I don't s Syracuse University is in a very unusual situation in seeking

uh extra legal exceptions to the Red Shirt policy because Syracuse University and Penn State University have essentially been the two stalwarts in opposition to the extension of the Red Shirt policy, West Virginia and Pittsburgh. While Pittsburgh has been somewhat neutral, West Virginia has been very anxious

to have uh a Red Shirt policy. Uh Eric Walker at Penn State who is now retired as president, was very adamant against the extension. And uh Bill Tolley was adamant against it and I have continued that policy. So we're in an interesting situation and asking for

something special in that regard. This does not mean however that if we develop a case in which we wish to plead extraordinary circumstances that I would be unwilling to do that. But I'm not sure that that wouldn't call for an instant kind of a suggestion that

there be a quid pro quo, which I'm also not sure we wanna enter. I I take it that the university values highly this arrangement. If you go to school, the only, the only key value as I see it for the four schools which are not in

conferences which establish certain kinds of ground rules is that by having an agreement among four schools, you are able to uh to apply group policies. Uh and some group discussion group is if you will John, where uh you might not uh uh where you would, you

might be engaged in uh more constant battles about numbers of grants and AIDS, kinds of eligibility requirements and so forth if you're doing it entirely on your own. Um there has been as you know, periodic or as you may not know, periodic discussions about the formation

of some kind of an 8 to 10 team conference which might include Syracuse uh my own view. And this is strictly a personal view, un endorsed by anyone and not discussed with anyone. My own view is that, uh, that intercollegiate athletics, uh, uh, on an institution

are probably fostered by a membership in a good conference more than they are by being an independent. But, um, you have to make sure that a good conference is one which does have the kinds of, uh, controls that keep you from having a runaway athletic program.

Anyone else I would like to ask one question about, about recruitment, any concern you might have or your view and the situations are not stand, you can understand that there are no black athletes recruit for this year. Is, do you regard that as an extraordinary situation

or one that will require some special effort or change? Yes, I, I see that as a uh as a definite problem, I see it as a situation which needs to be overcome and I think it needs to be overcome uh through some special efforts to recruit

uh some uh transfer students to Syracuse University so that we will have a uh we will continue to have in the future as Syracuse University has in the past. Uh the clear evidence that uh we do offer opportunities to representatives of various groups on our athletic

teams. I think incidentally that this is a concern that uh is shared very strongly by the coaching staff, oh, perhaps shared more strongly now than than eight months ago. But nonetheless, a real and honest concern. Now on their part, other questions, I did not, I recall

one remark I did not make when we started and that was that these proceedings are confidential. I'll say it now and that's all right. That's good. Thank you very much to see you. Thank you. Thank you. We appreciate it. The committee will.