00:00:07.329 - 00:00:21.829

And what you're listening to there is what's actually being recorded. So you'll be able to get an idea of what one thing we might wanna consider before we can watch the meeting is if we wanna set any kind of time deadline for the meeting, but we

00:00:21.840 - 00:00:44.950

wanna keep it. No, Mr Chairman, let's suggest a couple of times 9 30 too late. Good morning. 10. It's in. Ok. And I go for 9 30. Why don't we, why don't we just go at it and then long about 10 o'clock we'll say, you know

00:00:44.970 - 00:01:05.190

where we're at. Thank you. Ok. Can we be firm in that way? It might be good at 9 30 then we'll figure out where we're at. Ok. 9 30 is pretty much, I don't think there's any need for introduction except uh chair. All right. Excuse me.

00:01:06.290 - 00:01:27.699

Just Buffy mcgill, Al Newton DJ. Her. All right. If there are no kind of uh other questions, then we can begin with, uh DJ S considering the five major points that he brought up at the last meeting, name, calling discipline, differential treatment. What are the others?

00:01:28.309 - 00:01:50.260

Well, there, there were, there were three basic ones that I felt and recovered. That was the name calling, recruitment and discipline touched very lightly on some other things that, you know, possibly might like to get into great detail. We all. Yes. OK. Um There was a,

00:01:50.339 - 00:02:11.300

there was a question of, of, of poor medical treatment. I think you should deal with that. Uh I think as documented by, by white ball players in the, in an interview in, in, in the dialogue newspaper last week where I think they agreed with us that

00:02:11.309 - 00:02:31.690

it was basically poor medical treatment. So uh that goes on record as it is. But we find we feel that that there's also differential treatment uh collaborating with the poor treatment. We have a, we can cite a number of examples, Mr Womack who's not here tonight

00:02:31.699 - 00:02:52.210

was we feel we feel a a played example of uh uh malpracticing medical neglect or what have you. I really don't know that's some time for it as this case develops. I just like to lay it out to you so you can get a full grasp

00:02:52.220 - 00:03:09.679

of it because I want to, I'm quite sure that Mr Wilman, he says he's laid it out with some other people said he wouldn't mind me. He's not coming. No, no, he's not gonna go to West Virginia with his wife. Um Mr Womack, uh it was

00:03:09.690 - 00:03:27.399

known that he had epilepsy when he came up here. He hadn't had a seizure. And before you get that a known fact before he was brought up here and the couldn't process. The co chef was well aware of it. Uh, man made statements that no other

00:03:27.410 - 00:03:50.679

school would touch around. W, I don't know the truth in that this known medical after the reality he did play for a couple of years now. He, he played, he was a sophomore. Well, what happened? Well, he was taking medication and the amount of medication that

00:03:50.690 - 00:04:05.020

he was taking per day or how was issued, he and he hadn't had a seizure for two years previous to previous to coming here. So that means that it would have meant an additional year and a half. So that's 3.5 years. He hadn't had a seizure

00:04:05.570 - 00:04:25.260

and they were under control. Doctor Pong cut down his dosage uh and his rationale was to make him pep you was the situation evolved. What happened? It didn't make him up in, he began to have seizures again. And uh so what happened? They sent him to

00:04:25.269 - 00:04:43.369

a doctor and had him examined on those basis. He was rendered uh medically ineligible to participate in sports. But what happened after he was made medically ineligible, they had to up his dosage to where it was when he came, when he, when he came to Syracuse

00:04:44.070 - 00:04:58.459

and he hasn't had a seizure since. And that's been sophomore year. That's at least been a year and a half, two years. This coming winter. And now he, he's been out of a foot out of football and out of a football career now for two years.

00:04:58.470 - 00:05:14.350

And, and of course, he had to take other routes to try to, you know, develop himself in, as an individual. Does he still get, he's still, he's still on scholarship, full scholarship. But is there, in this case, it makes you think there's some kind of differential

00:05:14.359 - 00:05:38.450

black white? Ok. But what happened was, uh that's true. I wish he was here to tell it because he, he had several confrontations with coach Schwartzwalder concerning his playing ability. What was it prior to his removal from the team? It was a team meeting. Certain regulations

00:05:38.459 - 00:05:52.579

are read off to the squad saying that uh deal with the medical thing. If, if an athlete did not tell of a medical infliction before he got here, they could take a scholarship away. In other words, if I had a knee operation and I didn't say

00:05:52.589 - 00:06:05.790

I had a knee operation when they recruited me and I got here and they finally had a knee operation, they could take my scholarship. Mhm. After this meeting, uh Ron went into doctor Phil's office and doctor Phil had a quote down there and I think the

00:06:05.799 - 00:06:22.209

quote said, uh I forget the quote, but the quote, what it said was some type of indication that Ron didn't say he had epilepsy before he came here. You know, I tried to get him to admit that he miss this and Ron denies this. And like

00:06:22.220 - 00:06:36.480

prior to his uh move from the team, Ron was what Ron felt it coming on like a month ahead of time. The Popo Attraction. That was that Ron asked him, well, why was that, why was that quote so significant or why was the statement so significant?

00:06:36.559 - 00:06:52.869

If you don't say, well, get out of here. I don't have to explain anything to you. You're just a troublemaker anyway, one of those militants and this, you know, and this, yeah, and this uh more or less confirms some of the things in line. Um Coach

00:06:52.899 - 00:07:11.070

Schwartzwalder in a couple of dialogues with him had mentioned, you know, had talked about lines. Uh but I had spoke out on several issues where I had a racial question. I had gotten in a fight myself in the stadium the summer of 68 and uh another

00:07:11.079 - 00:07:25.299

black athlete had gotten in a racial fight uh two days after I did down there uh that, you know, the football players in the stadium erecting the movable stands all, all summer long. So that's the job we move. There's quite a bit of controversy over it.

00:07:25.309 - 00:07:45.459

And uh go Schwartzwalder had line in the office one day and you know, and Ryan spoke up very, very uh very openly. There was at that same zone. That was the, that was the question of uh Nigeria Beach and some more, the football players uh attacked

00:07:45.470 - 00:08:00.309

some of black black brothers on Marshall Street. There was, there was a fray um and then there's all types of versions of what happened. But anyway, a field representative from human rights commission asked that Ben called, demanded that be called a team, a team meeting and

00:08:00.320 - 00:08:14.570

discuss, discuss the problems in this meeting, Ryan, more or less took the lead and, and he, he spoke out and this type of thing and, and I was present after the meeting when post war w went on to tell Ryan and remember no other college wanted

00:08:14.579 - 00:08:29.899

you and remember we brought you out of the ghetto and that type of thing, one of that type of conversation. But that is, may I ask again? This is that, that, yes, it seems to me the connection is not obvious between the medical treatment and the,

00:08:29.910 - 00:08:47.760

and this other kind of attitude. We felt they had some basis, we thought it had some connection. Another thing too about this meeting, which was uh called Human rights. Both the human rights demanded the coach to have to discuss racial problems. Nothing came of it like

00:08:47.789 - 00:09:07.979

we had one meeting, nothing was solved. And that was it. I, after spending my entire summer in Cambridge Mass came back and uh who was a DJ Ron Womack, uh Willie Smith, John God, both and Olly Allen were here that summer and they witnessed everything that

00:09:07.989 - 00:09:22.900

went on the racial things and the problems and so forth. I was the first one asked the question al is there anything wrong not being here that summer? He asked me first expecting like a on the same lines as Floyd Little to make a statement like,

00:09:22.909 - 00:09:38.900

no, you know, I wasn't here so I couldn't say anything but, you know, we're proud. I said yes. And that was it. Did he pressure because he shaking bigger in four or, you know, well, he asked me, me not knowing the situation at all. And like

00:09:38.929 - 00:09:52.830

he had his chosen leader, like, you know, the person he considered like a good ***. And uh I was at chosen one. And so he figured he'd ask me the problem and uh I'd say no, I don't see nothing wrong as an individual. Whereas there were

00:09:52.840 - 00:10:11.859

problems in the group at that time. Had you uh the year before he went away that summer, had you had many conversations just man to man with the coach. You did? Well, he uh pinpoint of medically, could I ask my question about the medical issue which

00:10:11.869 - 00:10:30.640

might uh help uh you fellas take a physical exam at the beginning of the season and you take a physical exam on entering college and I presume in the physical, you're asked, have you ever had this, that or the other thing? And uh I presume that

00:10:30.650 - 00:10:44.400

that would be on record so that we could find out whether this epilepsy was mentioned in the Mr Wag's physical, but I just wanna cite to this case. So I, I have a couple of other cases, at least one of them that stands out in my

00:10:44.409 - 00:11:01.729

mind. Will Ryan Page who was presently on the team. Uh I, I'm saying that in certain cases, like, like in Ron Page, he was, he was injured in October and he didn't get operated on until the last of January. He didn't see an orthopedic until January

00:11:01.739 - 00:11:21.710

either until January because yeah, this is Ron Page. Now there have been cases where, where, where white ball players have, have have been injured less than that and have been rushed immediately to doctors, you know, and all types of and all types of medical treatments many

00:11:21.719 - 00:11:36.950

days off that type of thing, you know, to go especially to see a specialist or something like that. And, and these two examples stand out in my mind because I, I really think that there are some racial implications. There are some racial. Another instance was John

00:11:36.960 - 00:11:50.789

G was ill and he was placed in the I think the city hospital which is a little dump down behind the Veteran Hospital and I can't remember the the white player but he was ill and he was placed in, I think it was either cross or

00:11:50.799 - 00:12:11.309

memorial and that was differential treatment in that. And another case is the Willie Smith case, find information on that. I couldn't, I couldn't give you anything about it? Uh Reverend Frank Hallis, he was willing at the time to uh take this thing to court. Who you,

00:12:11.320 - 00:12:28.549

you lay this at the doctor? What's his name? Who makes the decision on these? Is he the man involved in all of these cases? He is the man who, who would make the decision as to operations and hospitalization because II I remember him specifically saying to

00:12:28.559 - 00:12:43.960

me one time, uh I think my shoulder was hurt and I had groin trouble. He said to me, uh don't worry about it, just get out there and play like you played against Navy and you'll be all right. Is he the only doctor for the team?

00:12:44.150 - 00:13:02.900

Yes, he is. You've never heard him say this kind of thing to a white players that but but admittedly but admittedly like a white ball player saying we, we have to admit it also because the medical treatment is poor, it is poor, but we feel that

00:13:02.909 - 00:13:15.859

there are just some gross neglect to do out to black ball players just just can't be tolerated. You can't have a man getting hurt in October. Not, not seeing a specialist until January. You think medical treatment is poor but it's worse for blacks. I I definitely

00:13:15.869 - 00:13:35.260

in some cases. Yes, very much so does it tend to be better for obtaining players like like you than it does for very strange, it's not good at all. Well, I mean, you consider there's a differentiation according to a man's importance to the team. Oh, definitely,

00:13:35.510 - 00:13:50.150

definitely. I would definitely say, I would definitely say so that gets into the, well, let's get to be honest if there's the training table and the trip thing, like we all, we all play football, we're all trying to contribute to this university. But yet 1st 44

00:13:50.159 - 00:14:05.169

eat, you know, the best or whatever it is and the other guys eat the other stuff. It's just like we were saying that that last meeting that, you know, we can, we can see, we can see it as, as definitely a black situation that that is

00:14:05.179 - 00:14:22.020

made uh doubly difficult because we are black, we feel, but we, the coaching staff basically just has, it has a uh uh a communications gap as far as dealing with, with contemporary situations, contemporary problems and, and, and, and, and, and people of, you know, of our

00:14:22.030 - 00:14:40.770

age and so forth. I mean, things like the, the trips, uh uh the white ball players, they get out in a, in an interview last week training table. Now the 1st 44 men eat the best food. Now, it seems to me regardless of a guy's ability,

00:14:40.780 - 00:14:52.380

if he's putting out, at least this is this, this is the ethic that the football thing is based on, you know, well, maybe you don't have as much talent as the next guy. But all I ask of you is 100% Now, let's say a guy doesn't

00:14:52.390 - 00:15:05.530

have much talent but he puts out 100%. I mean, it seems to me that the rationale for that he should be at least be able to get, get some of the best food. Am I correct? Can you tell me what the difference is between the 1st

00:15:05.539 - 00:15:23.419

44 foods? Some, some food mark best food. And, well, what happened there, there, there's a special, there's a diet lay out there, there, there's a diet laid out, uh, for, for, for the, uh, the, uh, supper meal after practice every day. It is usually come, uh,

00:15:23.429 - 00:15:38.200

has beef and greens, you know, that hasn't been prepared with the regular student food. And, uh, what, what the other ball players get is just regular nine home food. But what the football players get is the 1st 44 football players get the supper meal. You have

00:15:38.210 - 00:15:59.815

nice be, you know, they bring me out 44 maybe 50 steaks or, you know, choice pieces of meat, greens, fresh greens, uh, fresh salads and this type of thing, you know, I can describe it in general. I mean, because it's not a problem. I don't think

00:16:00.765 - 00:16:16.875

there is a problem. I'm saying, I'm saying in order to get at the black and white issue, I think we have to set the tone on some of these things, but I hope I'm not a black white issue, which I mean, I think we, you know,

00:16:16.895 - 00:16:33.989

got to limit ourselves or we get. Yeah. Well, I mean, for the 1st 44 right. I'm saying the medical thing, the medical thing, all right, say the medical thing doesn't get into a block weight issue. Are you gonna neglect that? Is that, I mean, that affects

00:16:34.000 - 00:16:51.260

the glass and ws that you've mentioned, not the specific cases. In other words, the heck with the medical thing. If it doesn't get into black and white, no, no, we are not in general. This committee is not charged with investigating the entire athletic program, putting things

00:16:51.270 - 00:17:03.760

in context is perfectly appropriate. I mean to stop you from that, but I do want to try to pin down if there are specific when I, when I'm trying to get the point I'm trying to make. Now I'm trying to, if I last some round so

00:17:03.770 - 00:17:18.430

you can get a confirmed understanding. Now it seems to me that this should also be taken into consideration in terms of uh of, of, you know, later on as we get into things and like we did in early September, late August where there's reinstatement and, and

00:17:18.439 - 00:17:32.650

we talk about that our, our, our coming back affects our initial status on the death chart. And this type of thing, this means this means poor fools, you know, and we feel, you know, we don't, you know, that type of thing. This means this means and

00:17:32.660 - 00:17:47.810

we pass out tickets, you know, before the games. Now, even our parents are affected by this thing. This, this is a coach's appraisal of an athlete now called Schwartzwalder. And I, that I don't speak in the first person now. And I let's say, have differences and

00:17:47.819 - 00:18:00.880

let's not kill ourselves. Gentlemen. When a, when a man has a difference with you and he's a coach, it does transcend that football, it, it does transcend and people try to tell and, and I've, I've, uh in discussion with the coach, he try, he tries to

00:18:00.890 - 00:18:19.430

tell me, tell me that he, he sees no white and black. That's impossible. That is impossible. You're talking about his appraisal views as an athlete or as a football player. I'm talking about his appraisal of me as a man. See, it's, it's, it's unrealistic to believe

00:18:19.880 - 00:18:33.270

that that uh even though athletes should be allowed to develop to their fullest, this is what we're talking about when you see athletes are all the same that athletes should be allowed and, and, and, and, and you should put the energy into developing athletes at their

00:18:33.280 - 00:18:51.560

full to their fullest. I'm saying it's impossible to tell me that, that, that you can't see me as a black man just like I'm talking about in, in, in, in hiring and jobs and probably anything that, that is clearly, you know, a black white issue. But

00:18:51.569 - 00:19:09.349

in uh the coach's case, for instance, he would appraise you as a football player. I being a faculty member would appraise you as a student a quick and is that the point he's trying to get across? You disagree with him? No, the point I'm trying to

00:19:09.359 - 00:19:23.979

get across is that there are other things just, just, just like, aside from dawning equipment and, and going through, let's say the mechanics of football, there are other things which that make the game, the game. I think everyone here that knows anything about football. I have

00:19:23.989 - 00:19:37.579

to agree with that in terms of a, of a, of a coach player type rapport and personal relationship or, you know, or just playing relationships. I'm saying this is where the assessment of me as a man has to come in when your coach would make a

00:19:37.589 - 00:19:57.000

statement to you to be a football player, first black Negro or whatever you wanna be second. You know, there's something wrong as far as your manhood, your racial dignity or racial pride or whatever. That's an interesting point. I think you're beginning to develop it. I'm not

00:19:57.010 - 00:20:23.180

sure I understand and probably many others understand you're saying that you have felt pressure toward, uh denying your racial identity, uh for the sake of, let's say your football career at Syracuse. And is that what you're saying? I don't know if you fail, I don't understand

00:20:23.189 - 00:20:46.119

them and I don't understand you. I'm not proposing to, you ask a clear question. I'm trying to get it a complex issue. Uh What I, yeah, these gentlemen saying is that, uh, uh, the coaches said play football, be a football player first. Uh, I'd be a

00:20:46.130 - 00:21:00.119

black man. Soccer. What are his words? I don't want to put words in my, because I'm trying to be a football player first and be black Negro or whatever you want to be. Second. That's a direct quote. That's a direct quote. Now, this was after, uh,

00:21:00.130 - 00:21:21.479

uh, uh, some, some certain, uh, racial demonstrations um during basketball should be placed in the context now. But, but, but what I'm trying to get at is what effect did this have on, you know, in essence, he was telling us not to get involved in campus

00:21:21.489 - 00:21:37.329

affairs or racial affairs or any type of involvement to uh disregard all that and, you know, be a football player because there was a time on the campus where there were a lot of black movements for, for an afroamerican studies program in a, a cultural center

00:21:37.339 - 00:21:51.180

and a black student union. He didn't want us to be involved with this at all. In other words, we were supposed to be a black student here or a member of the black faction on campus. That's why there now were there discussions about the specific activities

00:21:51.515 - 00:22:09.939

like the, the, the afro the Black Studies program and so on during demonstrations in the press and the media, uh DJ S picture was taken up front. Um I feel this was detrimental to DJ on that football field because they talked, they talked with him and

00:22:09.949 - 00:22:25.160

Dwayne Walker about being on a television show and it was a black demonstration and they said we shouldn't be involved in things like this. And what, what were the nature of the situations where the coach called you in to talk about that? Can you recall some

00:22:25.170 - 00:22:42.770

of the conversations? Well, I don't, in one case that I had, like I always had, uh, we had talked about what I, what had happened at Saint John's game. My sophomore year must have been the winner of uh 69. Uh The black students are just stand

00:22:42.780 - 00:22:56.979

for the American flag. And you know, that type of thing. It's like from national, I was called into the office and told that he didn't want anyone on his team. They've been down for the national anthem and that if I don't like the way things were

00:22:56.989 - 00:23:12.400

in the United States, maybe I should go to Cuba or Russia somewhere and things are better. And, you know, I really, I really couldn't grasp, I really couldn't grasp the situation. And the same in the same, the, the same conversation brushed off into a thing of

00:23:13.229 - 00:23:28.670

uh I, I got into it. I was trying to explain to him how black people feel in terms of certain things that we feel are hypocritical here in this country. And he, and his, his uh reaction to that was that he didn't know anything about this

00:23:28.680 - 00:23:46.780

black situation, all he knew was football. Do you accept that? But that is really his basic point of view. Do you think he's really honest as he says that? Do you accept that as an honest statement of Ben's view of things? I can't, I can't honestly

00:23:46.859 - 00:24:01.780

say the new man who's living in this day and age with communications being what they are don't know something about, uh, some of the racial strife that is going on. I can't, I can't believe that because um if you read a book which is Doctor Jim

00:24:01.790 - 00:24:18.349

Brown's book, get off my chest. There was a period, a period in Syracuse football history after Invader Stone. There wasn't one black football player for about six or seven years due to what Evader Stone did and Jim Brown was penalized for what he did. Don't be

00:24:18.359 - 00:24:37.920

like Evader Stone. Uh There was a point where Jim Rowley made him take a course in a character, character building to be a good American citizen. And let me show you the treatment to that is um like they gave him the character build. Of course, we

00:24:37.930 - 00:24:53.430

have a, a present basketball player, Bill Smith who uh has been throwing out a few games, has been suspended from the season and I guarantee you he's not taking no character building court have, of course, I don't know they found one for Jim Brown. Doctor K

00:24:53.650 - 00:25:18.619

for him. You know what, you know what mathematics 203. There's a, there's a, there is a, uh, a record of that course, a special course called character, character building. Well, that's not discipline. Of course, this is a certain, well, I think you can, you could, I,

00:25:18.630 - 00:25:38.949

I think we could get a, a, uh, both a, uh, uh, a statement that the court exists and that it didn't have any effect on Jim's behavior and very, yeah, but I'm trying to put this in this really as large a context as possible. Were there

00:25:38.959 - 00:25:56.339

any white players who did not stand for that? Do you think that he would have behaved the same for them? Do you think? Not? Probably I can't say because the situation, I wouldn't want one see what he would, wouldn't do if he hasn't done it. Well,

00:25:56.349 - 00:26:12.359

you know what I, what I, what I might be concerned with some of the things I felt that he has done. Yes, I understand. That's what you obviously can't describe some accuracy. Can you do? Uh, you know, it, it just seems that in, in terms of,

00:26:12.479 - 00:26:33.920

uh, just some very, very, uh, uh human issues, like, uh I went to him because I needed some financial aid for summer school. So again, uh summer 69 and I want to see the office and uh, they have, they must have a kit of fun or

00:26:33.930 - 00:26:47.780

something where, you know, players who have to take a large and a large amount of hours over the summer can get some financial help. I went, I asked him for some money and, and he said that he couldn't see where I as a player could contribute,

00:26:47.790 - 00:27:05.380

you know, had contributed anything and could contribute positively to the team. Now, this is a direct shift from the year previous before I got involved with some black activities on campus. And he, he, he admitted that even, even up to the day that there was a

00:27:05.390 - 00:27:22.219

point when he thought in the quote, you know, a fine young man, you know, that type of thing. Then I got involved in some camp black campus activities. You know, then I guess, uh, as he said, I love my playing ability. My, you know, his appreciation

00:27:22.229 - 00:27:43.619

of me also descended. Did he graduate as an athlete? Yes, he did. Yes, he did directly. Yes. Could I ask whether any of, you know, uh, of any instance where a white athlete of any kind has been, uh, penalized here for activism, campus activism, not to

00:27:43.630 - 00:28:06.859

my love. Have any of them, to your knowledge, been active. And, uh, uh, yeah, reres a, I don't know. Um, well, he was active in some bringing about changes on the t they got a whole list and automatically he was put on that shit list, I

00:28:06.869 - 00:28:32.329

guess, you know, it wasn't too serious because he was starting, he started the Easter Egg. It's, um, it's a very, you know, and it's a very uh can we, can we go back to the medical uh issue? And yes, Mr mcgill and see if we can

00:28:32.339 - 00:28:59.219

get some more pinpointed information on incidences uh that you feel uh involved the, the charge of medical double standard. Well, the main, like uh my colleague just said, I know uh uh Willie Smith and Ron Willmatt situation and I have wind of another situation that I'm

00:28:59.229 - 00:29:17.229

not sure of myself. And I would like to get some type of information about one of the, uh, the, uh, doctor possibly Murray. I'm not sure about the, uh, operating on the wrong ankle. I just do something like this. You do. This is still white football

00:29:17.239 - 00:29:37.359

for, it was a, what would you say is a general feeling, the general feeling, your general feeling about the, the medical treatment, medical treatment. I think it's very, very poor because I've been in there, uh, a few times. II I, that's unfortunate. I don't get hurt

00:29:37.369 - 00:29:50.969

that often. I don't seem to be in the medical room that often. First. Number one that, uh, I don't trust the medical facilities and, and the medical facilities and the coaching that, uh, in the athletic department. And, uh, I just don't get hurt though, but, uh,

00:29:51.339 - 00:30:09.209

the few times that I did get hurt no matter, uh, how serious the problem was or how non serious it was that he always told me to put ice or heat on it. I mean, he never uh really uh expected my, my, my uh injury just

00:30:10.339 - 00:30:25.920

new with the general uh position of the injury was told me to put ice down. You alluded to, uh, to uh Willie Smith in the medical treatment thing, but I don't, that was the first time I heard it nursing at all. There is there some details

00:30:25.930 - 00:30:47.069

that you might wanna mention about? I don't have no details. You could check with a room in front house and Hendrick Chappell, supposedly he was willing to take the athletic department of the university to court over that situation, love and some differential treatment. It was uh

00:30:47.079 - 00:31:04.000

Rich Bulls had a knee operation prior to coming here his freshman year. Oh, on this academic thing, they did entirely nothing for him as an athlete and get his courses together or see his professors for him or anything. He went back to Buffalo to have his

00:31:04.010 - 00:31:21.239

operation during the semester. Uh and he, and he then flunked out of school because of a lack of a academic concern for him when I was in an isolated kind of case or I'm not, I'm not sure. I thought that maybe I'm just trying to say

00:31:21.250 - 00:31:38.150

that um you know, in the academic for athletes, especially black athletes, you know, he had an operation. Yeah, normally they, they check with your department chairman or with your teachers, professors and try to string it up for you. I mean, he was absent for a while

00:31:38.229 - 00:31:56.380

because of the operation. They did nothing, nothing for him. He had to come back and shoot it on his own. Did they arrange for the operation? Uh, I'm not familiar with that. I don't think they did. I think, uh, uh, both design. So, could that be

00:31:56.390 - 00:32:13.949

the reason? Were they offended by this or they probably would, no doubt? I mean, nevertheless, well, I, I'm not saying nevertheless, I know statement made by coaches have told me that they wouldn't even go to doctor Pelo. Um, was there was Bull's injury in a game

00:32:14.089 - 00:32:34.680

that fall when he was a freshman was part of come here. Just come. They, they won the injury and then the operation during the first semester is that it, they had wanted him to, uh, go to a, you know, position. He declined, went to Buffalo and,

00:32:34.689 - 00:32:52.199

uh, that was taken care of. This is the one that, uh, he was injured in October and had the, that was, that was his roommate, Ryan page. You feel they're penalizing it because you didn't have the operation done here like they wanted it. And I think

00:32:52.650 - 00:33:17.140

that's a suspicion that you would have. Two. Paige was a freshman. I'm really aware of this. Paige was a freshman last year. There were two black freshmen was the fresh and they were roommates and both had knee operations. One, I got mixed up to one an

00:33:17.150 - 00:33:38.170

injury before he came and the other from an injury in October. And the thing about that is, um, page didn't respond the way they expected him to respond to respond and they blamed him. It was already in the spring. Let me say another thing. Let me

00:33:38.930 - 00:33:57.540

wait for that in my conversation with the white ball player before, before this thing really broke. They, they also have, have, uh, they have the knowledge that the, that the medical, that there is medical negligence. This is what they said to me, this is many of

00:33:57.550 - 00:34:15.760

them said to me, you know, prior, as a matter of fact, they, they make jokes that they knew there was deferential treatment or that it was poor or that it was poor treatment. They had knowledge from the doctor. They haven't, you just said they're, they're going

00:34:15.770 - 00:34:34.939

into the training room constant for their injuries. I mean, we are saying that there's poor medical treatment for everybody but in certain, in instances that uh black players are treated poor, it just gets outrageous. I mean, things like not seeing an orthopedic for three months, that's

00:34:34.949 - 00:34:52.610

ridiculous and tampering with the man's dosage. And you know that that type of thing can, can be dealt with is that, that he's penalized because dosage is tampered with. And uh man, a man has a knee operation, legi legitimate knee operation. No one makes any attempt.

00:34:52.620 - 00:35:03.620

No one makes any attempt to see that his academics are taken care of. I think this is one point where the in, in, you know, that pers that personal thing comes out in terms of a guy not being just only a body that dawns a football

00:35:03.629 - 00:35:17.715

uniform, but he does have other needs and, and uh and other uh su say factors of our life that also make him the ball player that he is. So I'm just saying this, this thing is all, you know, I, I just II I don't want anyone

00:35:18.014 - 00:35:29.625

to get straight to the main point. You are talking about racism. Gentlemen, I, I'm trying to hear you, Mr Her about this and uh you're talking about the humanization of the whole process and I'm trying to hear it now, what I'd like to know though, if

00:35:29.635 - 00:35:46.270

you can more sharply pinpoint a differential treatment between the black and the white. Now, you see, we could agree that this is dehumanizing the whole blooming Kaboodle. I'm not saying we do but we might but is there differential or I think this is uh has got

00:35:46.280 - 00:36:01.000

to be driven off to us. Uh Well, well, now I'm saying that we have to admit that the, that the entire athletic, the uh the medical part of the entire athletic department is very poor. So I'm saying I did not name IC at least 33 incidents

00:36:01.010 - 00:36:16.729

that are very critical to individuals. I'm talking, I talking about Ryan page who still can't uh uh work out 100% on his league. We're talking about a, uh, a no womack who no longer has a football career. Now, are there, uh, would this be different for

00:36:16.739 - 00:36:27.709

whites? I don't know what I'm trying to say. I mean, have there been some white, uh, gentlemen come here who, uh, have had problems of one kind or another? But, I mean, are they treated more fairly? I mean, are they given a second chance, are they,

00:36:27.949 - 00:36:41.860

you know, baby more whatever you wanna call it? They, they're definitely given a second chance. How did they do, Tosa, who was sent, who got injured and was sent immediately, who was sent immediately to a surgeon? He had a poor operation but they were injured. They

00:36:41.870 - 00:36:58.810

mentioned him. Uh I I, I'm, I'm gonna put, put the finger on doctor PLO as, as being directly related with, with coaching staff. And I'm saying that he enters into the picture of these, the two black cases and he's a very integral factor in that picture.

00:37:00.040 - 00:37:19.050

And uh um the case of Ron Womack is a very questionable thing, this medical thing against him because it, it was kind of coincidence. Uh like, um he decided to speak out more, more openly to the coaching staff with the problems, especially when the DJ had

00:37:19.060 - 00:37:31.709

a little fray. The summer of 68 Ron Womack told the coach the way he saw it and told him it was a problem and the more Ron spoke out, the less they liked him and it got to a point. Uh, a white player said it to

00:37:31.719 - 00:37:46.179

me that the coach actually thought Womack was crazy. That's why they got rid of it and they had a legitimate gripe. But that was a medical thing I'm saying. II, I can, I can trace our symbolisms and some parallelisms in the fact that, uh, uh, Ron

00:37:46.189 - 00:38:03.060

Womack, the more he got involved, the more he spoke out and that type of thing, especially about the antagonistic to the coaches or it didn't exactly parallel with Ben's point of view or way of thinking, then I can see where he was just systematically eliminated. See,

00:38:03.070 - 00:38:15.129

and, and by the same token, I, I look at myself and other ball players who speak out where as I was a good ball player when I got here for a year and a half or so. And then when I started to get involved, now he

00:38:15.139 - 00:38:35.020

tells people I can't play my way out. Ok. It's not that says something that says that that says something for two very distinct incidents. So I'm just saying, II, I brought up the issue of the trips, the training table and the tickets is there. Let me

00:38:35.090 - 00:38:53.949

ask you, let me ask you on the medical thing. Is there a uh what, what would be the feeling do you suppose, uh uh for any other black athletes that would come about the medical treatment, I think they would do just as bulls did. They would,

00:38:53.959 - 00:39:05.000

they would be lyric and what, what kind of thing would you be willing to, to tell them? Well, I, I would be willing to tell them of, of, of some of the, you know, I would tell them the experience that have been had that, that, that

00:39:05.010 - 00:39:18.000

the athletes have had here, both black and white, just like I would tell a white athlete, I would tell a white athlete to say anything. I tell them both black and white incidents that, that, you know, and as far as I'm concerned, and as far as

00:39:18.010 - 00:39:36.550

I've been associated with uh guys who, who've gotten seriously hurt here and, and need, uh uh uh need touchy operations or difficult operations. And like the bat nerves is quite poor. But these men are, are operated now though by uh some of the best respected doctors

00:39:36.560 - 00:39:56.270

in the city, not doctor PLO who's not a surgeon Murray Murray. Doctor Murray hands all the operations. Doctor Murray is a, is a, uh, I mean, the fact that you be ups and he fi of staff and any orthopedic hospital, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna

00:39:56.280 - 00:40:13.489

attack anyone's credentials. I'm just saying that, that I'm willing to admit it and the white ball players are willing even, I think Floyd Floyd L even this to me that, uh, that there's something lacking as far as our, our medical staff here is concerned. That's, that's

00:40:13.500 - 00:40:33.280

where that lies. I'm not to attack because I, I, there was a room but I don't know the truth to it or it was an operation, the doctor operated on the wrong ankles. I know it's true. That's what he was talking about this doctor. So you

00:40:33.290 - 00:40:51.179

would, you would not say there's a, there's a pretty negative feeling. There's a lot of anxiety in this hypothetical medical. Would, would you say that there's a great deal of that? There's a great deal of, I don't, I don't know whether it's bad feeling or negative

00:40:51.189 - 00:41:03.100

feeling, but a great deal of concern. First of all, what will happen to you if you get hurt? And second of all about whether or not you want to and I have to use the language I've heard is whether that you wanna be cut by the

00:41:03.110 - 00:41:21.229

people who cut, I promise, I personally, I promise myself that if I ever got seriously injured, I would never, I uh you know, I would uh contact my family and uh get my home doctor and home surgeons. That's what I promised myself personally. If I could

00:41:21.239 - 00:41:31.810

do it, then, you know, if I wasn't knocked out. A matter of fact, I told one of the fellows that if I ever am hurt and I can't and I can't, uh I am knocked out, I'm conscious and I can't speak or something like that to

00:41:31.820 - 00:41:56.780

try to contact my, my home and get me to, to my home, to get operating I said that before because, uh, and his wife, that Luke GTOs was operating and he had gangrene or something or, or some infection because his cast was too tight. I, to

00:41:56.790 - 00:42:22.280

take as a generalized feeling of lack of trust and faith in his medical. Definitely that would be correct. I, I, uh, I think that that comes through, I'm not sure that I have understood, understood any difference between the right medical treatment, but I'm not sure that

00:42:23.209 - 00:42:34.399

you help me out. Well, I, I guess it's because, you know, just like when we're in the dark room, you can't pick out the white side or the black side. And, and so what I'm saying is medical treatment is so for, I guess it's kind of

00:42:34.409 - 00:42:52.550

hard to make a difference. It kind of hard to point pinpoint, I would agree. But if it's uniformly or it's a problem but it's not a problem. But the overall attitude, the overall attitude, attitude, I think, you know, if I could, but, you know, I did

00:42:53.689 - 00:43:04.010

maybe tell us maybe how it, how it would be for me because I grew up as a black person. And I think the, uh, the kind of thing is that if you see that they won't do it for their own, I know they're not gonna do

00:43:04.020 - 00:43:22.469

it for me is the attitude that I hear coming across and it's, and, and it's a prevalent kind of attitude among black people in this country. And I know it was, uh, anybody in our family now that goes to the hospital, you wanna, you know, this

00:43:22.479 - 00:43:39.469

is my father who go near a white doctor because of his, uh, growing up in the south and this has been passed on to our family. Uh, and it has to be, uh, somebody that, uh, won't kill him. And the whole idea, I just, you know,

00:43:39.479 - 00:43:58.939

take, I give you my own personal experience, the whole idea of uh of uh people in my family, taking an anesthetic all that will put you to sleep and cut you is the term that's used uh is, is a uh is a pretty firmly fixed negative

00:43:58.949 - 00:44:13.639

attitude which is based on race. I I, and, and I can see it very clearly in what they're saying. I can see it very clearly. I, I understand this and I know it. And as a matter of fact, in uh part of the research that we

00:44:13.649 - 00:44:38.780

have done uh particularly involving welfare, uh Blacks very much resent being given generic drugs. And there's more demand in the black, predominant black communities for prescription drugs which are trade name and in comparable areas in the suburbs and so on. I I can understand this feeling

00:44:38.790 - 00:44:57.340

and I know it's true. Uh And perhaps an improvement in the medical situation would help a lot of things. But I, I still think that, you know, this, this particular issue is very complicated from the standpoint of our mission. Yes. I, I, I'm not too sure

00:44:57.350 - 00:45:14.639

how much, how deeper we can get on the medical. I think there's some other things that are probably, uh, that we can work on how but, uh, easier. But I, I do think probably, uh, it's not responsibility of the, uh, test, uh, the persons who have

00:45:14.649 - 00:45:33.000

testified to demonstrate differential treatment. Uh, they can only say what they believe and we will have to get uh others to say what they believe and see if they are the same. And then I think it's our judgment really to make the decision as to whether

00:45:33.010 - 00:45:48.659

or not there is uh uh differential because you don't have access. Uh uh I knew I had to become a college professor before I could uh determine I was being discriminated. Uh And in terms of housing, the point is I had no way of uh getting

00:45:48.669 - 00:46:02.689

to the people whom the real estate deal had told to say that they didn't want to sell the house. I knew it was discrimination but I had no way of proving it to other people. So I, I think this is part of the problem these gentlemen

00:46:02.709 - 00:46:16.000

are facing and I think probably we're asking them to do really a task that they are not capable of. They believe there's something there, but they don't know what has happened to the whites. As a matter of fact, what I, what I hear them saying is

00:46:16.010 - 00:46:32.379

life on the team is a little more segregated than I had thought it was. Well, we knew, we knew the medical treatment issue was gonna be one that, you know, would be very, very tough to document, you know, the other methods and other things. Well, I

00:46:32.389 - 00:46:47.870

guess at this point that II I would ability to, to add, I like to get into some, some of the, I think some of the, uh, actions that have been taken, uh, uh, let's say of the last six months since at least since the boycott. Some

00:46:47.879 - 00:47:06.870

of the things that have been done by coach Schwartz War that I feel, I really indicate if, if, if, if it's not racism, that's a very, very perceptive, perceptive activity in terms of, of, of what we feel is a, a black white issue. Uh, first of

00:47:06.879 - 00:47:26.060

all, I think it was an incredible at any time if I'm wrong. Uh, Vice Vice President, Carlton and Johnson, it was, it was the, uh, opinion or the impression of both the black athletes and the athletic governing board that there would be a coach to come

00:47:26.070 - 00:47:47.050

here in the spring that is displaying of 69 70. Uh, I'd like to interrupt DJ before he gets into that. Uh, prior to that, we were under the impression that two promises. Well, one promise was broken, um, in the spring of, on the fall of 68

00:47:47.060 - 00:48:06.030

in the spring of 69. There was a meeting, the coaching staff and uh I think Dean Carlton with three representatives from us, uh Robert Moir, who's a consulate at, lived in Syracuse, uh Doctor Alan Sullivan and Ron Walters, both of whom were on the faculty here.

00:48:06.510 - 00:48:22.520

And uh they met and discussed the racial problems and problems in the team with the black players, the white players and so forth and uh they called and uh of course, watch while Jim Decker, uh at that time, they felt to uh something that would tone

00:48:22.530 - 00:48:37.239

down the racial tension of the team would be to hire a black coach. Now, could I ask you a question? I hate to interrupt you, but I want to pin down the fact that you said they were your representatives that is, they had discussed and met

00:48:37.250 - 00:48:52.610

and discussed this with you and you in fact said you, we designate you to go talk to the administrator. Let me, let me, let me state the purpose of that. Also, we, we on several attempts to try to communicate with coach Schwartz. And uh it was

00:48:52.620 - 00:49:05.179

just more of a thing, you know, we, we were still boys then. I mean, I, that's, that's, that's the stage that our relationship was at. I, I think now I don't, he's moved to a different stance, at least he calls me a football player as a

00:49:05.189 - 00:49:20.449

man uh uh by our names, but at that stage, we were still boys. So there, there, there was clearly an impasse there. So we felt that if we had, we had some uh some men, some black men who uh and we felt that of what he

00:49:20.459 - 00:49:35.120

considers a accomplished or that, you know, some prestige or something that he would possibly be able to get some discussion, discussion about the issue. So at least we could get outside out on the floor without getting this snuffed, you know, before we had to change the

00:49:35.780 - 00:49:52.854

just for purchases of information, which of you, uh which of any of the black players, talked with coach about a black coach and who was sucked on. No, no, no one, no one spoke about the black coach, but we did speak about the incident. I said

00:49:53.985 - 00:50:14.389

some of the incidents and I think that one of the continue and uh they met with uh with these people and uh the three of these people were Ron Walters and uh, Alice Su also saw an affidavit at that time, the black culture was promised chance

00:50:14.419 - 00:50:33.989

the car was there midnight now. But anyway, they put on the spot that uh the three representatives were gonna sign a sworn, uh and today they would sign Carlton promise the black coach. But uh I think coach left in rage out of that meeting. And at

00:50:34.000 - 00:50:51.939

the time, there were two vacancies. We're not talking about position, but there were two vacancies, there were two vacancies at that time. Oh, the sincerity of the athletic department in the Iron Black coach at that time, they know there were two applicants, John Jackson at the

00:50:51.949 - 00:51:08.139

time was coaching at Ostra. Um rational for not hiring him was he wanted too much money. There was another guy George Greenwich from Cambridge Mass who was never, who has never received a response this day. Um The rationale for him was he wasn't qualified and he

00:51:08.149 - 00:51:23.929

has yet to receive a response even either way. And the coach still the liberty to, to survey other individuals for the job where, where he never, he never received a response. Uh He never received a letter from uh coach Swartzwelder to whether he could be accepted

00:51:23.939 - 00:51:39.040

by the position or he was rejected in the position or an interview or anything where, where did, where did those names come from? We suggested to the two names were submitted by uh one of the representatives, I think Al Sullivan, who were they given to, I

00:51:39.050 - 00:51:59.510

think to uh athletic director Decker or coach or the c from my chin. And that, that was a sincerity, just two applicants. Uh After that, they went out immediately hired coach Creve, coach me, you know, we felt this was a slap in the face, you know,

00:51:59.520 - 00:52:15.219

our promise was broken at that time, we felt we were making a concession and uh we would settle for a full time coach in the spring. So to be there in the spring, uh be after the governing board ourselves are under the impression that we would

00:52:15.229 - 00:52:29.090

have a coach for the spring and we were told that some black professional alumnus would come back and coach us, uh letters were sent up, I think to John Mackey who I'm sure of. He told me he received one with Floyd Little. Uh I was under

00:52:29.100 - 00:52:41.030

the impression that they accept that Floyd and Floyd would be here in the spring. Like Greg Allen was told him myself, I told him, well, Floyd would be here to coach you this spring. That's what you enjoy your soccer. Well, at this point, what, what did

00:52:41.040 - 00:52:58.330

you think? Where, where did you think that? Yeah, I mean, I, I was under the impression that Floyd Little would be here for the entire spring practice. This is, uh what practices of a 30 day period. Um, he was here. Yeah. Well, he, he sent his

00:52:58.340 - 00:53:10.479

document and said that in fact, he was not even that coach. It wasn't that he was the guy I fill in the position, but he just couldn't stay. But in fact, he has come out and said in, in, in, in, in a interview that he was

00:53:10.489 - 00:53:28.000

not that coach, in other words. So again, we felt that in, in the fall of 69 and we had made at least a concession on trying to, to get some type of baseball agreement for a Little King stayed three days and he made some very uh

00:53:28.010 - 00:53:44.719

derogatory statements as far as the attitude of the team was concerned and, and, and there were innuendos which uh directly linked that with the attitude of the black ballplayers because the only bad attitudes that he mentioned were those of the black ball players and he did

00:53:44.729 - 00:53:59.510

nothing but exalt uh the white ball players and, and, and say what great, what uh great athletes they were. Now, that's, that's all and good. If a man has his personal opinion, that's not what we're knocking. But the fact is probably hadn't seen any of the

00:53:59.520 - 00:54:12.969

black athletes in action. As a matter of fact, he hadn't seen any white athletes in action. As a matter of fact, Bill was going back in two years in the service, but at, at, at, at any length, he was ready to make detailed statements on, on

00:54:12.979 - 00:54:26.199

pros and cons of someone's ability. So the only thing that we were led to assume that there had been some discussion over those attitudes. He mentioned certain problems that we had, he never spoke to us and we did have problems and in fact that he was

00:54:26.209 - 00:54:40.169

a coach which he was not again, uh, if we did have problems, we see that he would have, uh, sought some type of con uh, uh a conversation or, or something to discuss those problems. Let's see if we get back to the facts. Did he? Well,

00:54:41.500 - 00:54:55.479

he was here, did he talk to any of you. No, no, you publicly stated that uh he helped recruited me and he could talk to me. But yet when he came back that spring that he couldn't even talk to me. Did he talk to you? Um

00:54:55.500 - 00:55:09.399

I was introduced to him on the field, you know, like little, little, like he made all the halfbacks of the facts, you know, high and by and that type of conversation. Did he talk to this team in general? And what kind of you say he was

00:55:09.409 - 00:55:28.909

here for two days? He was here, he with the team and those two days, um, the first day he came out, uh, co introduce him to the running back. He spent most of his time with, um, Annie Berry and other sports writers and, um, and then

00:55:28.919 - 00:55:41.439

he came around and watched us for a little while and that was it. What, what kind of practices were you in? That was the first day of school practice hitting dummies going through tires, things like that. Then we went a while and then it was, I

00:55:41.449 - 00:55:54.689

think s the second day that he came out, it was a cold day. It was, it was very chilly. He came out for a little while we were running through team drills and, uh, he was watching us and he said something, he made a statement to

00:55:54.699 - 00:56:06.610

me that, uh, I told him, you know, here I ain't playing behind, uh Marty, I've been playing two years and he hasn't played yet and he said all they do that to make you work hard. Uh, it was chilly. So he left. He wouldn't sat in

00:56:06.620 - 00:56:21.770

the car with his wife and the coaches wife and that was it. You did? No coaching, not, no rapping to us personally, to answer Doctor Johnson's question. He did not talk to me personally. For me, he didn't say hello, goodbye. How you do? He didn't say

00:56:21.780 - 00:56:39.750

one word. Me neither. And what we're getting at is that the statements that he, that he, uh voiced in the newspaper, he couldn't, uh, he couldn't have it and he, he couldn't make those statements without knowing the, the information. And so we feel with you as

00:56:39.780 - 00:56:58.870

a group, he did. So we feel that the statements like, like, uh, my colleague said, uh, they had some type of meeting some type of meeting among the coaches or something. Just a fact, we have reason to suspect that we, we have some type of coaching

00:56:58.879 - 00:57:18.500

with the coaches. So the point is he that he came from your, your point of view, he came and the most was said, is it the one time he spoke to, to al there was no discussion at all. He didn't speak to me at all who

00:57:18.510 - 00:57:32.689

were some of the persons he named in his public evaluation. I bought myself that was, uh, that was personal. And then he went on to talk about the rest of us in terms of these guys really got a problem. So you know, about something but he

00:57:32.699 - 00:57:50.350

didn't know what, right. And I'm saying, see it, uh I don't know whether you remember the article or not deal but it, you know, said attitudes of spoiler says attitudes have change. And then he goes on to talk about negative attitudes to the black athletes. But,

00:57:50.360 - 00:58:09.199

but the point II, I think that's a matter of, you know, a matter of speculation in the press, the point being that, that the amount of time you spent, uh, here spent on the field with you was about how is it a full day? I would

00:58:09.209 - 00:58:21.699

say, I, I couldn't say that he even spent a full day in terms of coaching because he did, he didn't do it, he didn't do any coaching, any coaching whatsoever. And I, I think that you can capitalize everything that he done everything that he did. Uh,

00:58:21.709 - 00:58:36.840

in a matter, it was, it was a three day thing. But how much time in, within the three days, how much time did he actually spend on with you? Let's say, uh, one practice, I, I would say one practice, one practice. That was the beginning of

00:58:36.850 - 00:58:52.629

your spring practice. Did you split up in the positions at the coaches? We put up a group, he never came out, he never came like the offense and defense practice almost on, uh, two entirely different fields. He never came down the defense. What kind of player

00:58:52.899 - 00:59:11.429

he never came back. So it was his group. It would be your group and he would normally identify with was a football player. That's a point of clarification. There. He true. He would have been coaching now, you know, a guy, a grade or someone like that.

00:59:11.439 - 00:59:24.870

But we're talking about the off the field report again. So you're talking about the off field report, you know. Yeah, fellas. Uh there seem to be some difficulty here on the team. Not, not fellas, you seem to have a problem. I, I, and I don't wanna

00:59:24.879 - 00:59:37.729

look out from a negative base either that, you know, we have a problem, fellas, you know, there seems to be a difficult situation here. Well, what, what do you, what do you feel? What do you feel is wrong? What isn't going right? None of that, none

00:59:37.739 - 00:59:53.010

of that type of thing. And that's what we were looking for. Someone we could relate to someone. We could, we could, we feel that we legitimately monitor the situation for lack of ability. Did he speak to God Bo? No. Oh, he took a God bo uh

00:59:53.020 - 01:00:04.530

uh that, you know, that uh if he, if he just start playing ball that, you know, he, he had to go back to the ghetto, you know, and try to try to make, try to make the money hustling. Well, we like to come back and, you

01:00:04.540 - 01:00:23.600

know, pay $20,000 in tax like he does. Did I say something that, that, that was the extent of that conversation, I think to the previous year when Floyd came back to file his income tax. So he came by my room to speak to me specifically and

01:00:23.610 - 01:00:40.000

Greg Allen specifically when we were having racial problems and, uh, supposed that he was there to straighten me and Greg out. Well, I didn't get to see them because the fever, the sprain did he have any contact with any athletes? Did he, do you know, did

01:00:40.010 - 01:00:59.360

he speak to white athletes on or off field about anything? I say what you're saying is that in your uh are, are you saying in your judgment that uh you feel it was used? You have to and what I was saying that we, we, we were,

01:00:59.370 - 01:01:13.280

we were working on from the base that there would be a AAA spring coach with a spring of 69 a spring of 70 excuse me. Uh That would be there for full spring practice for the second time. We felt that we had no Duke whom had

01:01:13.290 - 01:01:31.199

you communicated that wish to uh for the spring, you probably have a coach by the spring since you didn't leave at this point. Uh Doctor Alan Su who's down in Minnesota was, was working in the capacity of more or less a player representative and he did

01:01:31.209 - 01:01:50.580

so until he died, he did it. Yes, he was. Yes, he was to see what absorption might at this point. We felt that we had no recourse with the boycott. Not, not quit practicing, regardless of whether our practicing was felt to be legitimate or not. But

01:01:50.590 - 01:02:08.219

we did not quit practicing and stayed in shape. But we felt that uh we had to, to bring some weight or some attention to the situation that we, we, we feel is very, very crucial boycott. Can you define boycott? Now? Can we define it? What does

01:02:08.229 - 01:02:23.840

this mean? Well, this means that uh that we would work out but uh we would not look out of the team. It was a nonviolent attempt to, to, to, to establish some type of recognition from the cultural staff and administration from two system to try to

01:02:24.560 - 01:02:42.189

problems between the two group beginning to something on the university level. Uh last spring with the strike of the shutdown of the Cambodian issue, it was university policy. There would be no reprimand for any student to do anything nonviolently and peaceful. A lot of students set

01:02:42.199 - 01:03:03.350

up barricades block pedestrian and vehicle traffic which is a violation of university rules. Uh they could face sized buildings, they swept through classrooms and all this and there was no repriming for whole student bodies. This is university policy. Um The black football players, we boycotted non

01:03:03.409 - 01:03:19.669

rally peace will went through all the legal channels of the administration. And so forth and I a suspension from the season and, uh, I, I think this is a double standard on the university level where they treat blacks and the way they treat whites, what's, what

01:03:19.679 - 01:03:52.110

would be the time we're talking about on this boycott. At spring, spring, you met you at the Cambodia. They were unrelated, unrelated overlap. In April. It was, I guess it before Cambodia, could I stop you for just a moment. I just, I wanna cover some ground

01:03:52.120 - 01:04:02.199

previously. I fill in a little space that I think you mentioned and I wanna make it uh more clear. Um Mr Sullivan and uh and Walters and uh Mr War represented.