00:00:01.700 - 00:00:16.139

The, uh, members of the committee will ask you questions, but you might as well start, uh, by having you discuss the nature and the purpose of the varsity club, particularly its relationship to, uh S US football program. I guess that's most appropriate for you to start

00:00:16.149 - 00:00:44.049

on. You are the president. Yes, I'm the president of a member of the board of directors. I should have probably brought the, the eye while I was looking, I did not. But in general, I think that the purpose and basic objective university correct me if I'm,

00:00:44.529 - 00:01:08.870

this is important, we're not so interested in specifics and someone I generally uh give whatever support uh that we can give in any area that we, we have the ability to give it to the overall athletic program at Syracuse University because of the success of our

00:01:08.879 - 00:01:30.389

football teams and uh prominence of them. I suppose probably most people think that the only thing that we endeavor to, to give assistance to is the football program. And we do whenever we can, um, we're quite willing to do so, but we also hold ourselves available

00:01:30.400 - 00:01:48.949

and many, many times do give assistance in other areas as you know, the varsity club is, is made up of those individuals who have won letters at Syracuse University because of the geographic limitations, I would say if nothing else, those who are primarily active in the

00:01:48.959 - 00:02:06.690

implementation, uh uh whatever assistance we can give are those who are in the locale. And generally it boils down to the same, uh the same group of people as it does. Any, any organization. although we do get a great deal of help from our lungs and

00:02:06.959 - 00:02:22.830

laborers who are, who are outside the immediate environment. So we're just here to help. I guess that's the best determines how uh this support is allocated. In other words to which individual athletes are to which uh sports. Well, I, I'm, I'm gonna pass to stew in

00:02:22.839 - 00:02:37.259

a moment because he's more familiar he had been on the board longer than I am and more directly connected with it. Uh I presume you're talking about economic support. Uh Let me just, let me just say this, there is no direct economic support to any individual.

00:02:38.039 - 00:03:02.919

Um We don't, we don't operate that way because we in the first place, we don't think it's the proper way really to go about things. But uh still, why don't you? I know you're more talking about economic aid. There are certain areas or the university itself

00:03:04.479 - 00:03:25.990

hasn't seemed fit to furnish money to do the things that no, and that's where we try to fill in the gaps. I'd be very happy to get examples of what we're talking. Well, we're only familiar, I think with two of the, uh, laundry lines and summer

00:03:26.000 - 00:04:13.410

school there. Uh, you know, uh, the university is privileged under the C double eight code. $15 a month. This refurnish the way $507,000 a year, we take care of all the summer school tuitions and the, uh, I work, uh, we furnished the laundry in 67. Uh,

00:04:13.419 - 00:04:35.320

one of the things we have to do, which seems a little, a little bit ridiculous to me. The university will not do it. It seems that, uh, most every elderly is gonna have a sort of contact lenses. These don't come cheap. Why we black, uh, I

00:04:35.329 - 00:05:01.130

suppose. And ok, uh, of our boys troubles me from it. Ok. His father died and then we put money in the home and gave it to him. Sorry. Well, extra legal. But still again, I had to do it besides from what I've told her this. Yes,

00:05:03.119 - 00:05:26.820

the major we understand that this is the first year that the laundry is given to all football players. I don't know. I don't know that they, is there a difference between the, and the laundry allowance of $15? One is, yes, there's a big difference. The $15

00:05:26.829 - 00:05:53.179

there's a $15 is an NCAA allowed some per month. Uh, and it's not necessarily for laundry, but we, when we talk about laundry somebody. Yeah. As I understand it, uh, every, I guess, practice, start school in the fall, particularly the football players get their streets and

00:05:53.190 - 00:06:09.019

fellow kids and they put a deposit. Yeah, let me rephrase my question. I guess laundry lines is just a euphemism. Then the $15 I understand. This is the first year it goes to all football players. All right, prior to this year, how was it decided? Which

00:06:09.029 - 00:07:01.920

football players to give the $15 to coaches decided? And then there was, I don't know, what is it? What's the total figure? Support, uh, Arsy club to you? So, I, I varies. I guess I just gonna have to use,

00:07:02.049 - 00:07:24.309

I could probably around 10 to 12,000, maybe 13, 1 year nine. Another depends on how good solicitors do you charge dues to the varsity club members or do you go out? Well, there's a basic, uh, dues that each member pays each year. Uh, but when we

00:07:24.320 - 00:07:54.000

go for these other sums, why we attempt to, uh, the des don't cover that. The Dews just cover our basic. So we had to go out to, to our members and ask them for support surgery university. So you're a market for, you probably know the name

00:07:54.010 - 00:08:13.329

of the account Physical Fund. 2900, or something. And, uh, when these amounts become due, I, I guess Jim gets out of there. I don't know this, I'm gonna Yes, I have a surgery but this gives us a two pronged approach. You see, it helps us support

00:08:13.339 - 00:08:35.580

our athletic program and it, uh, permits a donor to get a tax deduction and get credit for his gift to the universities. And he e he earmarks it. Are there any other activities that the varsity club engages in that relates to, like, uh, travel, the trips,

00:08:37.039 - 00:08:58.710

team picks or what you call banquets or lunches or festive. Uh, I think is the customary, we're the key game each year. We, we've given the athletes a dinner so that, oh, yes. Another thing which is, uh, you've seen the football team, the basketball team, I

00:08:58.719 - 00:09:19.849

think the baseball team would be a shoe jacket. So now those, our policy has been, we'll buy half of it. Let the boy, by the other hand, the turn and this is for, we do engage in other activities of that type. We'll give a dinner for

00:09:19.859 - 00:09:35.950

the crew and, or a luncheon for the crew and we'll have our basketball night for the basketball team and we have, as stu says, we'll have, uh, I get her for the squad, football team things. They're not there. It isn't a regular program each year. Although,

00:09:36.280 - 00:09:59.840

although it usually works out that way, but uh, we're flexible but we can, we can help. Pardon? In what way is the uh varsity club involved in recruiting any direct way, any formal regular way, not directly. No, not being formal, but we have a lot of

00:09:59.849 - 00:10:15.849

interested people, obviously because of their membership of the club and their activity in the club are interested in the intercollegiate athletic program at Syracuse. And they, and, uh, many of them are eager, eager to help and whenever we can enlist their support, why we do. And

00:10:15.859 - 00:10:33.809

they've been extremely helpful. If you ask us, we're spending money when, when, uh, prospects are brought to the campus. Have they ever brought two people in the bars club for entertainment? No, not as such. Uh, let me give you a typical example. Surely bring in athletes

00:10:34.750 - 00:10:49.859

spraying a N call here. They'll call me back and say, look, we're having a lunch by prospects that are coming to the campus. We'd like to have you join because I don't know the pace for, we love him, shake hands and I don't want a great

00:10:49.869 - 00:11:04.330

school. Syracuse. It was nice to come to school there. So why should I see it and check when they come if we have members who are active in a, in a profession or a business that the, that the boy might be interested in. For example, if

00:11:04.340 - 00:11:14.890

he's interested in going to law school, he might come see stew or me and we'll take him to our office and show him a little bit what it's like and try to explain to him what sort of courses we think he should take and what the

00:11:14.900 - 00:11:53.940

law school will be like what the law, the legal profession is like. And I assume that, and I know they do it with other members of the club in similar positions in other areas in that. Uh, I've been asked by, by, by, by, uh, Andy,

00:11:53.950 - 00:12:13.090

that happens to be a baseball player. Generally, the communication with me has been to the coaches and not be particularly, I don't think because I remember the varsity club just because they know I'm interested in the blood now, innovate and I'm available most of the time.

00:12:21.179 - 00:12:53.090

How long has the Varity lab been in existence in Syracuse? Uh, this was formed and about 19, it was in mid thirties, been there about 35 and it's grown. We have about 1000 re they're all in this vicinity. Are there. We did a lot of arts

00:12:53.179 - 00:13:14.500

club in the Bill Jones Charlie since we took over Charlie Lee as secretary. He's been able to go to lot of time to first time. Yeah, Charlie's done a fine job. He, uh, he has a long history with the university as, I don't know, probably you're

00:13:14.510 - 00:13:34.770

aware of it. Of course, he was a graduate at one point, he was alumni secretary. He was engaged in fundraising. He did very, very well as far as participation at SU is concerned. He's always had a real loyalty and interest and he's, he's a great guy

00:13:34.780 - 00:13:54.700

for that. Is this a full time proposition with him? I don't think it is. I think it's a part time. It's the only thing he does. So, even though I have full time, he's a great, we couldn't pay her. He does. I understand that each Letterman

00:13:54.710 - 00:14:10.700

is invited to join the bar school lab. Is that right? The senior Letterman uh automatically make members at the awards dinner at the end of the year. And we attempt to encourage them to maintain their, their uh membership and some do, some don't generally, it's uh

00:14:11.500 - 00:14:27.859

the general rule is that those are fair that are fairly close to the community and therefore have feel that they can avail themselves of whatever benefits they think the Gy Club offers or whatever it is, contributions they can make are the ones that uh in the

00:14:27.869 - 00:14:49.330

main, I think retain. What response do you have from uh black members in maintaining their membership? Do you have a fair contingent? Um I'd say probably I'd have to check the rules but it wouldn't be any better than fair. Uh I think Dave Bing is still

00:14:49.340 - 00:15:20.460

a member. I think, I think gymnast is still a member. There are others. I can't name them by name Floyd Floyd S or I never thought about, I would say that in proportion probably the ratio of uh blacks that retain their membership probably is a little

00:15:20.469 - 00:15:40.250

lower. Although I'm not, I'm not quite sure, I really don't know the figures. I, I, I hate to speculate which is what I'm doing. I'm guesstimating. And so you were in a local area? Well, John, there's no one that I, that I know of that's really

00:15:40.260 - 00:16:06.700

active. Um, it comes to meetings. Of course, there are a lot of, a lot of whites that are, that are members that aren't active, that come to the meeting or that aren't members. I, that, as we continue, I feel glad to say that, uh, both the

00:16:06.710 - 00:16:30.900

gentlemen are also members of the athletic policy board. Mhm. Yes, I, I, I have a suspicion that I would say that suspicion. No, I was, I was getting the feeling that, that we were questioning was going along as if they were here only as members of

00:16:30.929 - 00:16:47.969

the varsity club. Both are members of the athletic and they're here in that role and they're here in that rule also. Yes. But we're, uh, that's one of the reasons why I asked you to come along because, uh, and he actually, he's been a member of

00:16:47.979 - 00:17:10.199

the varsity club board much longer than I have. I'm a member of the athletic board for much longer than I have. And, uh, so I thought it would perhaps serve a dual role because I was sure that there were gonna be questions along. No. What was

00:17:10.209 - 00:17:34.760

your understanding about the agreement that was made concerning a spring football coach? The incident with, what was your understanding? No. Well, uh, I don't know where to start but at some point in time in our meetings, John raised the question of a black coach, John Johnson

00:17:34.770 - 00:18:02.099

in our meetings and uh some discussion took place. Um We eventually reached a decision that uh we didn't reach the decision. The point was made that the coaching, all coaching vacancies were filled, but the we would attempt to find a coach if we could, but it

00:18:02.109 - 00:18:18.209

became fairly evident at the end. And I, at the end, I'm talking now about April or May that we weren't uh 69. There's no last April or May that we weren't going to be uh that there wasn't going to be a full time black coach by

00:18:18.219 - 00:18:38.949

the end of the end of the school year. And I don't know whose suggestion it was, but either our last meeting or next to last meeting, the suggestion was made that well look uh and it was made to John uh as a probably a stop gap

00:18:38.959 - 00:18:55.089

measure. If nothing else, it doesn't appear as if we're going to be able to uh come up with a black coach by the end of spring, by, by spring practice. Uh my dates may be wrong because this is, this is before spring practice. So when I

00:18:55.099 - 00:19:13.270

say May, if it wasn't May, it was prior to the time practice started, why don't we try to get someone back at least to help in the spring? But if you're talking about a promise or a commitment for a coach. I know of no such promise.

00:19:13.280 - 00:19:27.839

There was no such promise made while I was in any of those meetings. And I think I was at most of them, there was a, a decision made to try to get someone like John or Floyd, John Mackey or Floyd or so anyone else who might

00:19:27.849 - 00:19:47.709

fill the bill back, uh Maggie was contacted, but uh he couldn't come, he was tied up in the negotiations. As you probably know Lloyd was contacted. Uh He indicated that he could come and that he was going to be in Syracuse anyway, but I don't, or

00:19:47.719 - 00:19:59.359

at least I didn't understand, I can't speak for anyone else. It was not my understanding that he was gonna come for the full period or that there was any representation made that he was gonna come for the full period. And it was quite clear to me

00:19:59.369 - 00:20:09.790

at least, and I don't have to speak to him. So it was quite clear to me that he was only gonna be here for a relatively short period of time and during that period of time, he'd be glad to help out. And that was the only

00:20:09.800 - 00:20:28.099

understanding that I know that ever came up in the house too. I don't know how that occurred in the March. I said no at first. But I think I, I think I know the March meeting, I remember very well became evident. So I'm a black coach,

00:20:33.000 - 00:21:00.969

young lady, um, very a cheerleader. Teddy Fitz Morris. That this said, why don't you see if you couldn't get Maggie or little outstanding black athletes and that can help good idea records. And, well, I, yeah, he said you might tell probably was there wrong to come

00:21:00.979 - 00:21:25.599

back a week or so, uh, check, uh, check out his tax problem for l when I, I was the time he'd be here, he wouldn't be here for the whole practice six. Misunderstanding of, I understood it. I knew he wasn't gonna be here. I don't know

00:21:25.609 - 00:21:40.760

how long he would be here. So, I, I, right. Did you, did you feel it desirable as members of the athletic governing board that a black coach be there for the entire spring training? Yeah, if you could get one, I think it would be nice. I,

00:21:40.839 - 00:21:54.510

we're pretty fine when we come and stay for a, it was, yeah, it was a practical pro. I think the answer is preferably an unqualified. Yes. If it were the right, I mean, if he were a good coach can II, I think it's, uh, we have

00:21:54.520 - 00:22:11.469

to say that if you were there just because he was black and really weren't, you know, it wasn't particularly pro proficient in football. Uh, then I, I, for one wouldn't be for it. But if we could get someone who was a good coach and there are

00:22:11.479 - 00:22:27.489

plenty of them. So, you know, uh, it wouldn't be that difficult to find someone who was that good. Certainly, see if you're gonna get a coach in just for spring practice, the first thing you, you gotta get, you can't pick a, a stranger to Syracuse foot

00:22:28.949 - 00:22:40.250

because by the time you taught him what you're trying to teach him, he wouldn't have time to do any teaching himself. He's got to be knowledgeable about our system of play and that's why the suggestion was made. But let's get one of marijuana out of those.

00:22:41.140 - 00:23:06.979

What's going on? I was the first time that a co uh issue came before the athletic policy board. Can you remember the first time when it did? And uh I can't remember exactly what the mean is, but it seems to me it was 69 and I

00:23:06.989 - 00:23:20.959

remember when John first came on the board, this is one of the questions he raised and I remember the day you came on the board in September of 69. This I remember very well. Now I think the question's been raised before that, but I'm not certain.

00:23:23.449 - 00:23:48.270

And that it seems, seems to me that when they fill two vacancies at that time, was it only John Johnson's request or was there a group of black athletes who came before the athlete, a group of black in terms of this particular, the immediate situation that's

00:23:48.280 - 00:24:11.250

precipitated this whole thing and the reason we're here tonight. But those athletes, sir, I'm awfully sorry to interrupt but I'd like to say one word about these cars that are parked. Uh, we're letting the people park out here. Even. I, every word gets in the paper

00:24:11.260 - 00:24:29.939

and the paper pop up on. Were there other incidents when black athletes came before the board? Well, I, there are none since I've been on the board. I've only been on the athletic administrative board for about two years, maybe 2.5. So I know no others. There

00:24:29.949 - 00:24:58.010

was one. I remember one of the as well, Sam Pen. You remember him, Jim, there was a grievance and for the life of me, I can't remember what the grievance was. I had to do like that is your basket. They appeared before the board chaired in

00:24:58.020 - 00:25:32.780

the informal session. We had a long talk and whatever the grievance was, it was solved. II I don't remember that I would go back and seal, you know, you had in the next six years I write about was writing that six or seven years ago. Yeah.

00:25:34.160 - 00:25:52.319

Could you tell me what is the authority of the athletic governing board with reference to the athletic program at Syracuse? It's an advisory board has no final source supposed to discuss questions of policy and advise the administration and I assume the chancellor investing some power. I

00:25:52.329 - 00:26:09.699

think it's a little more than that. I think uh at least in terms of its bylaws, it has the responsibility for the direction control and supervision of the athletic program, subject of course to the chancellor and the board of trustees. Well, I don't mean this, I

00:26:09.719 - 00:26:30.709

mean, it's, uh, uh, did you advise the chancellor with reference to they, uh, uh, the turbulence in regard with reference to the black athletes and the coach I never asked. Well, that's what I'm trying to get a picture of you. See this and the timing of

00:26:30.719 - 00:27:04.030

this is such that this happened. Our last meeting was in May just about the time this it's coming. Crest and at our last meeting was last Tuesday. You have me. It started in October, the chairman James and he has to call me other than the regular

00:27:04.339 - 00:27:26.910

time. If there were an executive session to be called, I would presume he would call. Now the board met in May and the boycott was in April of 70 that we discussed. We discussed the, I remember, I remember were there any recommendations to the chancellor about

00:27:26.920 - 00:27:54.020

how that should be handled at all? And uh at least the feeling of the door that I think John put it pretty well. He says there apparently is no communication there between the, the athletic department like ale. He said it's too bad and I, I said

00:27:54.030 - 00:28:19.430

it was too bad and there got to be something not to be done about it. I think somebody ought to move forward to see if these groups get together. They were in. They couldn't agree it was my feeling at that time instead of waiting to step

00:28:19.489 - 00:28:51.650

in and I think, but, um, I said, I think this is what we said. Yeah. All right. Sure. I would be glad to make them available at 10. And you were sitting as a board that had, ok, that had direction control and supervision of the athletic

00:28:51.949 - 00:29:10.510

department. Well, I don't think, I don't think that, uh, I'd like to comment on that. I, I'm not so sure we do have direction control in the administration. I think probably if we're going to have it, we, we should have it. But uh, ah, I think

00:29:10.520 - 00:29:31.010

the problem was in terms of what you're obviously the questions you're trying to obviously answer is if in theory, we have that jurisdiction, why didn't we do something about it? I think it was such a delicate pro that we never, and this is an opinion I

00:29:31.020 - 00:29:50.520

voiced in our meeting or two or three days ago or last week, we were never really given the opportunity to delve in to the, the meat, the nitty gritty, call it whatever you will, the basic facts that constitute this problem. We were on the periphery of

00:29:50.530 - 00:30:08.089

it all the time. I think we wanted to get into it. I think it was the judgment of people in the administration. I think it was the judgment. Probably certainly Chancellor Corbally, probably of Jim Crow, perhaps of John Johnson in their positions uh outside of their

00:30:08.099 - 00:30:26.219

positions on the athletic administrative board that this is something, uh, because of the, of its peculiar nature, at least as far as heritage is concerned, uh, that they were attempting to solve without us. And, uh, I think we felt a little miffed by it, but this

00:30:26.229 - 00:30:38.530

is their, you know, after all, they're the executive officers of the, of the university, if they choose to handle it that way, uh, uh, there really wasn't much we could do about it. I think we would have loved to have gotten in and made some s

00:30:38.650 - 00:31:03.969

some suggestions. Quite frankly. We were, we were never given the opportunity. Now, Jim and John are here and then they can speak to themselves. Well, I think there's another factor perhaps motivated to. So not too, at least I was helpful. I assume other members with this,

00:31:04.829 - 00:31:35.849

there was an impasse but people are reasonable. Maybe this can be solved partly peacefully. Hopefully that by the time the months went on before football practice and, and my father work out imp passer, it's not solved. We did. Was there any discussion in your main meeting

00:31:35.859 - 00:32:00.839

on the question of suspension? There was a discussion, I don't think there was a discussion that of suspension per se. There was a discussion of what should be done about bringing them back that suspension. How could the chief bring at that time to? Well, but certainly

00:32:00.849 - 00:32:17.550

was considered at a previous time. I wondered if it was considered at John, I mean, you know, if, if a boy misses one practice, it's a serious infraction. As far as the football rules is concerned, your board met better than a month after the boycott at

00:32:21.900 - 00:32:41.729

our position has always been at least in terms of uh immediate reaction to whatever action is taken by individual players. This really is a problem. My question was, I misunderstood, I was simply trying to find to what degree you were brought into the discussion of the.

00:32:42.939 - 00:33:02.689

I thought this might be. Well, uh let me tell you what I recall. I recall the question being raised as to whether the players uh and walked out should be invited back. John felt strongly that they should for, for various reasons and I'm sure, but uh

00:33:03.449 - 00:33:19.079

he felt that there were good reasons. I don't think that uh let's put it this way, there was by no means unanimous agreement with that position on the part of the board. And there was a discussion as to the merits of his suggestion and other suggestions

00:33:19.180 - 00:33:38.290

at the main meeting which was eventually concluded by the like everybody agreeing that somebody should be done, something should be done, but it should probably be done by the coaching staff in direct communication with these people. Uh the uh eight boys at that time, rather than

00:33:38.300 - 00:33:51.760

by some sort of form of communication from the athletic board. In other words, if they could solve it among themselves and hopefully they could, that would be the best way to do it. Now, what John, what's your recollection of that discussion? Is that a fairly accurate?

00:33:51.770 - 00:34:12.959

Uh We, we passed uh in fact, we are we and, and ended up passing a strong recommendation that the athletic director seek out uh contact or communication. I think I, I didn't say a resolution. I think our pretty strong recommendation. It was the sense of some

00:34:13.000 - 00:34:31.858

of us need some medication and that was as far as it went, the nature of the communication we felt was really at this point, none of our business that was between the coach and the player. What you're telling me is that uh um while you do

00:34:31.868 - 00:34:50.530

have this more formal and awesome charge in effect, the board has looked upon itself as an advisory board over the years. Is that, that's true. I think that an idea of what were some of the advice. But while we, uh for example, you, you request of

00:34:50.540 - 00:35:26.139

scheduling, sometimes scheduling of games. Yeah, I do. We talked about the 11 game schedule, there was considerable discussion. There's no hesitation to contact the chairman on that one. We've, uh we, we pass under question the advisability of postseason contacts, ball games, basketball, pass on the visibility

00:35:26.149 - 00:35:51.899

of sending the wrestling team or the swimming team. So South Carolina or wherever it happens to approve the award of five letters to all players, uh we pass on the, uh, the fees to be the charges for football games. Pass on the, uh, to some extent,

00:35:53.360 - 00:36:15.719

we have to find authority that's from the question, student fees and cents for football games and our graduate students in amount of days I think this has been discussed. There you go pass on the question that the facility, the parking facilities at the manly field house.

00:36:17.159 - 00:37:04.100

No, ask them a question of how to handle best handle the crowds at football games, basketball games, student seating through student representatives passed on the use of the stadium, football games to outside groups. Oh, yes, I'm not. What's on anyone who wants anything on the agenda.

00:37:04.110 - 00:37:24.989

Simply calls the secretary Mr Decker of the board and we have a standing agenda which, you know, uh, committee reports and whatnot that is automatic and then under new and old business we carry forward our head to request. We have 55 or six committees of the

00:37:25.000 - 00:37:49.320

committee and facilities, office facilities, a committee and student academics situation. There's a committee and a postseason events. There's a committee and field houses, standing facilities or any other? All right. Do, do you recall when the administrative board on athletics was created? Well, I used to, yeah,

00:37:50.699 - 00:38:13.919

you have to go back and this way originally they had an athletic association which was a privately operated attitude. They got the receipts from all athletic contests and they paid all the bills that was up to about 1929 or 1930 came to the depression. The athletic

00:38:13.929 - 00:38:36.969

association went broke because a lot of other wanting to pay expenses. So, an athletic board was formed now that, uh, that probably goes back to, well, when I say 1930 probably 1926 27. And, uh, this went on for quite a while. That board had a lot

00:38:36.979 - 00:39:02.310

more power than this. And there was a reorganization, I guess, 15 years ago, 20 years and the name was changed to the administrative board on athletics. That's the correct name that you changed. And, uh, bylaws were written which I'm sure are available to, you see, to

00:39:02.320 - 00:39:19.979

leave some powers of the board. And I think these were pretty much correct and, uh, in that set of bylaws that was provided that the person in Jim's job and I'm not sure of his title should be the chairman of the, of the administrative board in

00:39:19.989 - 00:39:46.370

athletics by virtue of that office period. The, the vice chairman, I have to be vice chairman, but that's back and forth at times and that's it. And there was a cheerleader on it. What happened to me to be a year? Were you brought into the, uh,

00:39:46.379 - 00:40:13.179

issue of the basketball players when they refused to stand during the playing of the national? This was, that was, uh, that was the only issue I was, you brought in each of these kind of, we were, we were into that other issue with the black basketball

00:40:13.189 - 00:40:28.459

players and, and, you know, doctor, I can't, to, this day, I can't remember what it was about, but it was, it was substitute playing segregated teams. I don't think so. No, no, no, it had nothing to do with that. I'm, I'm sure that wasn't if it

00:40:28.469 - 00:40:55.320

was no, as I recall, uh it had to do with the positions assigned to players and it was uh it, it was not totally racially based as I recall, but it had to do with the coach player relationship. I, I remember San and Seal. That's all

00:40:55.330 - 00:41:20.850

I remember him very well. I don't remember anyone else. I'd like to try to tie something down to your possible connection with the black white athlete situation. Uh And I am wondering when was the first time when the as a governing board became aware of possible

00:41:21.199 - 00:41:43.979

tension? So you may need, this is the first time, I mean, as a became aware as a as a board as an. Well, of course, you fellows can only speak for yourself as individualism. Well, I remember, I do remember the first meeting that John came to.

00:41:45.090 - 00:42:02.530

This is what he's I know it isn't. Uh at least I don't think it's specifically, but John made a statement that certainly led me to believe that there may be some, some problem. Had you been aware of this fact prior to Jan's statement? No, this possibility

00:42:02.620 - 00:42:21.719

that I can recall, I don't think so. I'm quite sure that I had not, this was a year ago. This would have been last Septem September. And, um, so I, when he, he made the statement, I was a little surprised and I, I think I recall

00:42:21.830 - 00:42:42.770

asking him directly if he, what he meant was, was there discrimination on our football team? And he, at that point said he was not sure, but he thought there might be, or I'm trying to, I can only paraphrase what you said, Jonathan. And then I, or

00:42:42.780 - 00:43:01.310

someone responded by suggesting that if he thought that there was perhaps he should come back and bring to us some more specifics because there was probably, or at least we didn't think there was anyone more interested in resolving it than that group. Uh So that, that

00:43:01.320 - 00:43:24.919

was a sort of a little advanced notice, but there was no official problem that came to our attention until the spring and it may have been May or April or one of the late spring ordinarily we do. We don't. Well, I may have misspoke myself too.

00:43:24.989 - 00:44:17.340

I said, I said so October, when Doctor Johnson first came to the board in May, when the boycott was discussed or March, when the uh the black coach, I know the correspondence uh at one meeting about the previous selection, uh and who

00:44:17.350 - 00:44:38.629

he had written to. Yes, there was discussion about a black coat, but there was no discussion of being a problem of the type that eventually crapped up or came to a head. Would it be possible for this investigative committee to see the minutes of the board

00:44:41.060 - 00:45:03.899

that's up to June Tolerant? I, I also think it would be helpful if we could see the charge actually at the, at the time. But, yeah, I think, I think you should see, I see that money. Right. Do you have one? No, I don't think I

00:45:03.909 - 00:45:30.780

have it. Really. I do. We're connecting, inject something here. Can we conjecture a little uh from your experience on the uh athletic governing board and having lived with this issue that has been so much pain for the university and I guess it all be connected with

00:45:30.790 - 00:45:56.750

it. Oh, do you see a role that could have been played by the athletic governing? Uh and with whom do you think the athletic governing board could have had its greatest impact in trying to uh resolve the issue, solve it? Uh reconstructing it, you know, it

00:45:56.760 - 00:46:19.379

just hindsight and one of the reasons we are here is to try to see how we prevent something like this from happening. Hm. Yes, I, you see ro because I feel strongly that the board is to function effectively. And I, and if there is a need

00:46:19.389 - 00:46:40.689

for such a board and I, I believe there is a need for such a, that it should in effect, contribute the advice and counsel of its members, many of whom are outside the administrative or at least some of whom are outside the administrative and academic community

00:46:40.870 - 00:46:59.260

and perhaps can bring a different perspective to the problem, perhaps helpful, perhaps not, but at least a different perspective. And I think that had, uh I'm treading very carefully here because I, I don't want to step on any toes. This committee is obviously doing a good

00:46:59.270 - 00:47:20.550

job or it appears, is it just, I have to be candid with you and, and say that I think that uh there should have been some members of the athletic board at least participating on this committee, not necessarily supplanting anybody on this, but I think it

00:47:20.560 - 00:47:35.110

should have become involved. I think it's the nature of its char implicit in its charge is the responsibility to become involved in this type of thing. Why would you, why would you suggest some member the board should be on the committee just because of the nature

00:47:35.370 - 00:47:52.530

of its very purpose? No, but let me push this on you. You're an attorney. Now, remember the athletic governing board has an authority over the athletic program and there was a breakdown in the athletic program. So you are really part to the situation. Well, that's one

00:47:52.540 - 00:48:07.300

that's your opinion. I, I don't mean, I don't mean in a negative way, I mean, uh due to the fact that by custom, the athletic government board became advisory rather than exerting its authority I'm not contesting whether you speak because this chancellor to, I mean chancellor

00:48:07.320 - 00:48:22.590

call this decision, but I was, I was just dealing with that, but I'm not so sure by choice but, but at any rate, uh I do feel there is a role that we could have filled. Uh I don't, I don't mean to become argumentative nor do

00:48:22.600 - 00:48:39.649

I want to. I don't think, I think it'd be productive if we did. But I think that perhaps if some of these questions had been explored more fully before I grew, uh that maybe some of this might have been avoided. I don't know. So let me

00:48:39.659 - 00:48:55.659

push you on this. Who should have uh put it on the agenda to explore before your group should have been Gem Carlton should have been the secretary Mr Decker or should it have been someone else? I think it should have been anyone who was directly involved

00:48:55.669 - 00:49:13.810

in, in the, in the situation. Now, II I can't uh I'm not sure of who was directly involved. I'm quite positive that, that Jim was, I'm quite positive that John Johnson was. Yeah, and I'm quite willing to, to be corrected if I'm wrong, but that's why

00:49:13.820 - 00:49:33.149

we're here to get it out on the table and talk about it. And uh I think that uh my understanding is that many, many conferences took place uh at which Jim was present and John was present, black players, white players coaches. Uh I'm not saying we

00:49:33.159 - 00:49:47.070

should have been present in all those conferences, but perhaps if representatives of those groups had had come before us at special meetings because we have other business and we all that, we always seem to get down to the end. We have a two an hour left

00:49:47.080 - 00:50:04.000

and never have time, but at a specially called meeting or more as the case might be, I think we could have assisted. Yeah, let me ask you this. I'm trying to get this clear early and I thought I heard you say that you felt this was

00:50:04.010 - 00:50:19.860

an issue that could, should be resolved by the coaches. Then I hear you say that this should have come for you. And what I'm trying to get is what is the pathway? What is the avenue that you see? Well, if I'm getting these kinds of issues

00:50:19.870 - 00:50:32.989

before you, that's why I asked you about the situation. I asked, but I do feel that that any situation of this type, if it can possibly be resolved between the parties directly involved, such as the coach of the players should in the first instance, be resolved

00:50:33.000 - 00:50:48.969

at that level. Yes, it has to go beyond that level. And this problem obviously did have to go beyond that level. Then I think we could have been of assistance who should do the monitoring though because uh remember if I'm a coach, I think I'm in

00:50:48.979 - 00:51:06.939

charge of what's going on and I think I'm solving it. So, um I don't bring it to you because I think I'm solving it. So, where should the monitoring be done so that you can deal with this well, became evidence uh along and through August. If

00:51:06.949 - 00:51:42.429

this, this problem is, then, hm, his representatives should have said that's meeting the board here. This thing is getting out of control. Let's see what the board thinks about. It's a matter of, have you ever had a special meeting on the board for any kind of

00:51:42.540 - 00:52:07.540

sort of emergency or not? Since I've been on board? There have been meetings for. Mhm. So the decisions made about security and whatever were not made with your knowledge. Uh I might read this again. I think Nick pretty much quoted it just, just about as it

00:52:07.550 - 00:52:29.310

is here under the constitution of the administrative board on athletics at Syracuse University. Article two abject responsibilities. The administrative board and athletics shall have the responsibility for overall policy and direction control and supervision of intercollegiate athletics at Syracuse University subject to the control of the chancellor.

00:52:29.320 - 00:52:59.189

And through him, the board of trustees of Syracuse University, very powerful charge. That's why they were never permitted to execute. Maybe that's the answer. I said, you gotta work off. Can you give me an example, Chuck, this is happening when we get an invitation to play

00:52:59.199 - 00:53:17.989

in bolder. Mhm. A special meeting of the board would be called or the membership would be pulled or something, but it was always done after the fact, somebody else decided somebody else decided that we did or did not want to. So I was, you know, we,

00:53:18.000 - 00:53:42.479

we wanna do this. Is it ok? And that about right, Stewart. Well, why do you think that's happened? You served on the board? Yes, ma'am. Yeah. One reason why we're pushing this line of question is because this kind of thing can oftentimes be defined as a

00:53:42.489 - 00:54:00.550

personality situation when it might very well be that there were just no structures present to help mediate the individuals or if the structures were present, they were bypassed and not used. And that's one reason why see the charge of this committee is not only investigative but

00:54:00.560 - 00:54:20.409

to make recommendations. And so we, we need to explore what is the present mechanism and whether it's working or not, this thing is wrong, all of this, I mean, the, the temple, it was fed up in the period 34 days, which three or four days do

00:54:20.419 - 00:54:50.320

you think? Well, in the long run, the first of September this fall, this fall busted when I don't, I get the impression the chance to go or that's it. Do you have any feeling as to why he took the? I don't, I just, uh I think

00:54:50.330 - 00:55:04.840

probably he felt that, oh, I, I can only guess, get into his mind. He felt that it was the most appropriate way to handle it. The circumstances are a very difficult problem. He was receiving nationwide publicity. He was on the, we were on the spot, he

00:55:04.850 - 00:55:23.879

was on the spot. Everybody was on, on both sides of the argument. And I think he felt it was serious enough to have his direct intervention. I can only assume you, do you think there might be a case of atrophy here and on the part of

00:55:23.889 - 00:55:50.790

the uh administrative board on the athletics in terms of the powers you had and the powers you used or have been using. I think that that's the obvious possibility probably. How do you see yourself involved in helping this not to repeat itself? For example, I understand

00:55:50.800 - 00:56:10.260

we don't have any blacks on the freshman team on the approaching freshman team. This and um I understand we've probably had blacks on the freshman team. Syracuse going all the way back maybe 20 years or so. Maybe I, I think we could probably find, I know,

00:56:10.449 - 00:56:45.080

you know, the background of this, I think some of the don't we have got, we got to that place, had the occasion to attend the luncheon, one of the tanks amongst us when they've invited some fresh one invested and uh this to you. I talked to

00:56:45.100 - 00:57:16.729

all this five or six black possibilities of calling them to. I thought very much interested in doing the surgery. Bang all of a sudden their just collapsed. Now, I can tell why, why it collapsed. I, and reason to believe it was true, I can recall but,

00:57:16.870 - 00:57:37.989

and that's too cold. Coaches told me the coaches, coaches told me, uh, the athletic director told me and, uh, Ron Page. All right. Now, this is the source of information, so it doesn't bother me. But, uh, uh, I'm looking for this at a university that has

00:57:38.000 - 00:58:09.070

had a, apparently that's good for the football team. Now, given the circumstances where there are no blacks for the approaching, no matter what the reason is. How do you see the athletic board being part of a situation to restore a multi racial character to our football

00:58:09.080 - 00:58:34.649

team in the first place? I don't think that you're going to need the athletic board to take any really affirmative action in the common parlance these days in that area because I don't think that you're going to have a situation where under there are co th

00:58:34.699 - 00:58:53.389

there it is gonna be a continuing situation that there are no black because I know, uh, I shouldn't say I know that's a very conclusive statement, but my conversations with the coaches lead me to believe that, uh, if there are 10 good black football players or

00:58:53.399 - 00:59:08.699

basketball players, and I think there are some black basketball players this year, they're gonna try their darnest together. So I, uh, you're starting with the premise that we have known this year, we're going to continue to have none or you're concerned about the fact that there,

00:59:08.709 - 00:59:24.560

there may be a program, at least that's the implication I draw from your question. I'm asking another question that, well, given the fact that they are, that's the case. I just wanna get that given the fact that they are none, uh, is the athletic government board

00:59:24.570 - 00:59:43.649

concerned about this enough to, to explore it beyond just the coach's word? See, that's the issue I'm dealing with because apparently, uh, the athletic governing board thought that the coaches would solve the issue of the black players and it wasn't solved. Now, having gone through one

00:59:43.659 - 01:00:02.199

crisis where you relied on the coaches, um, I'm raising another issue. Uh, uh, do you see this in terms of your own app of the governing board as in need of some sort of exploration beyond just the coach's word which you have received? Well, I can

01:00:02.209 - 01:00:17.969

only speak for myself. I can't speak for the athletic administrative board. Obviously, uh I would say that if year after year or even two or three years in a row, there was an obvious lack of black players in light of our background of recruiting black players.

01:00:18.889 - 01:00:34.989

Uh, and with a complete lack of any good reason why there shouldn't be any. And I would be concerned, then I would begin to think maybe there's a, a program not to recruit a definite program not to recruit black players. I'm not in favor of that

01:00:35.000 - 01:00:49.850

kind of a program. I don't think anybody on the board, a couple of years before that one year we've gone through one year right now, next year. Suppose that there aren't any, I'm certainly, if, if you're asking me if I'm gonna take what the coaches say

01:00:49.860 - 01:01:05.429

in good faith until there's something that leads me to believe. Otherwise I've got to say yes, because I found no reason ever not to take what they say. And that's what I'm raising a question about. If you remember you said that when Doctor Johnson first came

01:01:05.439 - 01:01:22.280

on the board, he raised the possibility that there was some racial problems of brewing and apparently that was discussion but no fine action on the part of the board. And the situation continued. I must remind you that we asked him to bring back specific instances which

01:01:22.290 - 01:01:39.879

he never did. Well, that's neither here or that you have to, uh administrative fairly and squarely, you've got to keep that an administrative unit. It makes its own decision. It never relies upon the strength of a single individual. Uh, well, it has to rely on some

01:01:39.889 - 01:01:54.510

objective evidence, not a blanket shotgun, but that's not the issue I'm dealing with. I'm not dealing with who's to blame, but I'm really dealing, I'm dealing structurally still, there were some signs that there were some problems and the board didn't act now. II I, and, and

01:01:54.520 - 01:02:08.760

I'm saying that is a problem next year and what I'm really a little disturbed that is your judgment that you would wait for a couple of years. You know, these things move fast and I was just one trying to find this is the board sufficiently concerned.

01:02:08.770 - 01:02:22.719

Now, in the light of its charge that it might be willing to try to develop some kinds of structures to get on top of this. Other than just the word of the coaches, I don't care for your phrase other than just the word of the conscience.

01:02:23.629 - 01:02:35.090

Well, what I, I'm not gonna, it misleads, that's not the meaning. What I'm saying is the coach is obviously the coach thinks he's doing the best he, he can do in addition, in addition to that. Yeah, I don't mean, I don't mean this in a demeaning

01:02:35.100 - 01:02:46.340

way because I, you know, all of us think we're doing the best that we can do and I think the coach, uh, thinking that they're doing the best that they can do. So I don't, uh, I don't distract from what they're doing, but that's the reason

01:02:46.350 - 01:03:12.679

for having someone other than yourself. If you agree to add, to add to what I would call a lack of initiative on the part of anyone on the board except the chairman to engage in, uh, other than routine activities that have been on the agenda every

01:03:12.689 - 01:03:30.300

year because the matters come up every year and, and, uh, I don't know whether to call it new projects, new ideas solicited from the board or, um, what you call, um uh taking some initiative to get a s uh some kind of you at least take

01:03:30.310 - 01:03:58.979

a school and a lot of things that uh not and this thing we did individual members that I could recite a great many things with, got it done with the physical structure of the university though. Seating situations, no seats in the field house. We're up on

01:03:58.989 - 01:04:23.330

the field fieldhouse. Uh many, many things we have done it. But uh in this particular situation, I uh you say, why we didn't do something? Well, maybe we should have, but we didn't. I think I say on the other hand, why would we call on? You

01:04:25.699 - 01:04:48.080

really thought the situation was a coach player relationship. I wouldn't interfere with, it was a coach player relationship. It could be solved by communication. And I think that's precisely I urged to do medication, but apparently there was, there was an m class of the tried to

01:04:48.090 - 01:05:11.840

monitor whether this was going on once the meeting was over. As a matter of fact. Yes. Uh there was prompted communication on the basis to some extent of the May meeting. No, no, on the basis of the athletic governing board meeting in May because it led

01:05:12.750 - 01:05:39.239

to discussions between me, not as chairman of the administrative board exclusively, but also in my other role with both the athletic director and the head coach, which in turn led to the letter that was sent by the head coach to each of the boycotting players indicating

01:05:39.250 - 01:05:59.560

that they should arrange for a personal interview prior to August 1. As I recall it, I'm at, I'm gonna check my dates here. But part of the basis for taking this action for my taking this action as, as the vice chancellor and as the chairman of

01:05:59.570 - 01:06:25.590

the athletic governing board was the action taken in May which called for communication. I check, you should know too. Excuse me, Jack, I, I check periodically with Jim Weekly or so on whether or not communication had taken place. Well, it was a regular series of uh

01:06:26.290 - 01:06:55.370

conversations that we were having about uh based upon my information from the black athletes, uh feeding it into gym and him so that he could reflect it in his communications to the uh I think uh I think you should know that that the recommendation was made

01:06:55.379 - 01:07:15.139

to the, that was made known before anyone on the committee was selected that there should be participation perhaps by varsity club and athletic board members. Uh So we just didn't sit back and let this thing, right? Also, uh our last meeting, uh as you say, we're

01:07:15.149 - 01:07:29.699

all, we're all engaged in sort of hindsight operation here. But it became very evident to us that we should at least go on record and let the chancellor know that we felt we should have been involved and that we were little disappointed that we and uh

01:07:29.709 - 01:07:45.449

So we passed a resolution to that effect also for what it's worth, we did it. So we just, we don't, I don't think sat completely passively by and literally by. Did I ask you if I could copy this before I distributed it? Is it all right

01:07:45.530 - 01:08:04.459

to your back? I think I would like to, to go back to one of the things that Doctor Willie mentioned and I did say a couple of years, but I think you have to realize that I'm, I'm including this year this year, including so if, if

01:08:04.469 - 01:08:21.669

and I also must realize that I've discussed this thing with the coaches, question them directly about it on my own and asked them what their position was not as to why there were, although I, I did discuss that not as to why there were no black

01:08:21.680 - 01:08:36.120

players on this year's freshman football team, but as to what, you know, what is going to be done, are there going to be, does this mean that there are gonna be no black players on next year? And, uh I received an answer that, that satisfies me

01:08:36.129 - 01:08:51.988

that if they can recruit good black football players, they're going to now now the second year of my two year proposition probably would be this fall if none showed up for next, next fall. And so then I would begin to, to wonder now, I just don't

01:08:51.999 - 01:09:07.000

want you to misinterpret what I said. May I ask you on that line, you said that you had received an explanation as to why they were. Can you tell us what, what is your interpretation? That's why there in the moment, I like to see this, that

01:09:07.009 - 01:09:24.250

we, there were four or five or five black players that coaches really wanted. And if they came here to visit and after they came here to visit, we wrote them a letter, we, the university wrote them a letter asking them whether or not they enjoyed their

01:09:24.259 - 01:09:39.889

visit, whether or not they were interested in coming back. One of those letters was answered, that's only part of it. The uh the other, the other part of the explanation is, is really the, the issue about which there, I understand there is a dispute and that

01:09:39.898 - 01:10:03.810

is the, the players that are here. Now, that's your understanding, I think. Have you talk with any of the black with the P, did he said he discouraged? No, he wasn't here to recruit. He said that he had had conversations with it which indicated to him

01:10:03.819 - 01:10:34.930

that you didn't talk to other black players who, uh, who was suspended. Uh, and you haven't talked to any of the prospects who came and visited the Yeah, well, make a judgment, but well, it's, it's strange, I didn't finish sentence. I, I say this, I don't

01:10:34.939 - 01:10:54.529

want to deal with John. I'm dealing with the administrative structure and that's, please keep me straight. I'm dealing with the authority of this. And from where I sit, which may be the wrong perspective. It looks to me as if the board has not taken an issue

01:10:54.540 - 01:11:15.040

but basically has operated on whatever the agenda the athletic department has given it as even your conversation with me since you've operated on the conversations you've had with the coaching staff. And those are personal conversations I know, but the point I'm looking for as a member

01:11:15.049 - 01:11:34.290

of this board and also as an alumnus of this university is how do you prevent this? And it seems to me that the bullet that has the charge like that cannot prevent this if it's either captured. Uh athletic staff are captured by Councilor's office, are captured

01:11:34.299 - 01:11:53.439

by any unit. Uh It has a, the board has an integrity of its own. Uh This is not unique in organization or relationships. Most governmental agencies that are set up to regulate units in our society eventually are captured by uh let's just say the truth, your

01:11:53.450 - 01:12:09.830

banking organizations and other kinds of administrative organization and it can happen to an athletic governing board. And one of the things that I'm thinking in my own mind is how can a board like this extricate itself? So it's not captured by any of its kind of

01:12:09.839 - 01:12:33.129

its uh not clients. I don't know how he's called it and it's constituents. Yes, constituents. Uh take, for instance, you are, has the title of the administrative board on athletics, there's not just the football team, there's basketball and baseball. Uh, if any of you sensed what

01:12:34.069 - 01:12:52.459

would amount to, uh, an air crisis and in the communication between coach and players on the foot that might have some spin off and the other, uh, athletic programs on campus, would this be something you would look into on your own? Uh, again, it, it's, I'm

01:12:52.470 - 01:13:15.220

thinking of initiative and what you might call a, a planning function or a forecasting function. You can call it a watchdog function. As far as athletics are concerned, the charge reads responsibility for overall policy and direction control and supervision of intercollegiate athletics. That is like the

01:13:15.229 - 01:13:36.200

constitution. It almost any way you like to have as much power as little sentence too well, subject to the control. That would mean, you know, your hands are slapped if ok, well, that mean, that means you can quite frankly you make a recommendation and it may

01:13:36.209 - 01:13:49.169

be accepted. It may not, I would read it that way. I would read, uh, do whatever you like until someone says you can't do it. I mean, that's the, it could be either way depending on what the, uh, feeling of the board is and I know

01:13:52.399 - 01:14:18.740

I'm not talking about, I'm talking about. No, let's as an example, you form your own investigative committee if you wanted to, even though the one that you could, you could, you could plan with the coaches of the basketball team, what might be an orientation program in

01:14:18.750 - 01:14:33.560

communication so that the same breakdown won't occur there or on the baseball team or on the tennis team or wherever if this seems to be your diagnosis, yours not ours of what happened last spring. And it seems to be from your main meeting that that's what

01:14:33.569 - 01:14:55.009

you thought happened. There was a breakdown in communication and it should be corrected. Well, obviously, the breakdown, you know, resulted in uh a very black mark for Syracuse University this fall. So the question is, will it repeat or is there something that the administrative board on

01:14:55.020 - 01:15:13.100

athletics could do to see that it didn't repeat itself and snowball into all the other athletic programs on campus. I mean, to me, that would be a constructive suggestion. I think there is a possibility occurring. Hopefully, it won't, I don't think any member of the board

01:15:13.109 - 01:15:29.009

or any member that's in this room, any individual that's in this room wants that. And I think we should take it upon ourselves to make Darren sure that OK, it's happened once, you know, the old saying, we may be dumb but we're not stupid. We don't

01:15:29.020 - 01:15:45.790

want it to occur again. And I agree with you 100%. I think we do have their response if he said a man, you know, becoming maybe a board member. Now, the sentiment of the board at the last meeting was that, uh there, there does need to

01:15:45.799 - 01:16:21.069

be a, uh, re evaluation of the role of the board in all manners. Uh, there's a long range but, uh, so this is a question that we discussed among ourselves. You see, you have to understand that there. Really, again, I'll refer to the old expression. There

01:16:21.080 - 01:16:36.740

haven't been any grades really lately and everything is fairly calmly and there hasn't been any need to inject ourselves into something of this nature and all of a sudden it came and, uh, I'm certainly not going to go to say that it didn't catch us a

01:16:36.750 - 01:16:57.330

little unprepared, caught me on here. I, uh, so I, because of that fact, maybe we didn't deal with it as adequately as we should have or maybe we didn't take as enough, take enough, excuse me, initiative. I, I'm not so sure that that's correct, but let's

01:16:57.339 - 01:17:11.200

suppose that that's the case. That does not mean that under the very charge we have now that we have to, we have to restructure ourselves. There's no reason why we can't do it the next time. In fact, I think we should do it the next time

01:17:11.240 - 01:17:35.049

I would, uh, I think they, I, I think the next meetings will, will show some, uh, concerned. For instance, I'm concerned today with finding out as a member of the board, finding out in the newspaper that, uh, Syracuse University is playing Northwestern, an announcement over the

01:17:35.060 - 01:17:53.129

press and, uh, not hearing about this at the board meeting last week when the decision was made, uh, when and where, I don't know the decision was made, except that there was a mandate from the board that this would be in principle to be followed. Remember

01:17:53.140 - 01:18:25.919

these kinds of concerns. Pardon? For tonight's paper, it was an announcement of 11th game 11 game. And next year we had a meeting last Tuesday and as a board member, uh, find out in the news of the, I call your attention to this preparation of athletic

01:18:25.930 - 01:18:42.959

schedule will be to the athletic director or his staff under his direction, athletic schedule will be acted on by the board either when complete or in preparation. If athletic policy is involved, why there's any policy involved or not. I don't see how you wanted to test

01:18:44.379 - 01:19:06.319

if you had endorsed the idea. You know, I'm suggesting that, uh, that, uh, this is a matter of the kind of communication we had a meeting last week and, uh, this event was, was known and it was not communicated to the board. I know her. I

01:19:06.450 - 01:19:25.140

don't think they had a problem with that. Maybe it, maybe it's just an example of a kind of communication that short. Maybe it complete to see. I don't know because I didn't know thyroid either, you know, worse off night. Well, that's not the, that's not the

01:19:25.149 - 01:19:42.299

problem. Either one of us is worse off. The, the, the question is that we made a, that, that the athletic program made a, a rather gigantic step in the actual scheduling of the game. Uh, for instance, I remember quite clearly that, uh, when we talked about

01:19:42.310 - 01:19:55.689

that on the board, we talked about several things. One of them is whether the game should be, uh, uh, uh before the season because that meant the athletes had to come back early or whether it should be at the end of the season because that, that

01:19:55.700 - 01:20:15.069

meant they stayed later. We specifically talked about the possibility of raising additional funds by playing in Miami. Uh, we talked about, uh, playing a way where there'd be a large number of alumni. Now, this decision to play Northwestern was evidently made, uh, without a further discussion

01:20:15.080 - 01:20:31.750

of those, uh, considerations. Now, it's not the first game, it's the second game. But then, but the season is lengthened, uh, isn't lengthened. Um, but, but you see this kind of thing is, uh, it was not communicated to the board. I don't know, there's a year

01:20:31.759 - 01:20:48.839

maybe Jim knows that. Obviously, I hope there's some sort of guarantee. Yes, there is because those were the directions that we gave. Those were the, one of the, my, my point is, would have been, would have been a matter of, you know, the fact that we

01:20:48.850 - 01:21:05.100

had a meeting two days ago last week would have been an easy matter to communicate this to the board if we are a boar and not a rubber stamp. Well, it may have been a communications problem but it appears to me you're fairly an outsider that

01:21:05.109 - 01:21:24.640

the only change in policy is, is uh extending the season from 10 to 11 games. And apparently this was done last fall as a matter of record. I suggest I suggest that the principal. Well, I think it's just been told if the game has been Consummated.

01:21:25.709 - 01:21:46.680

I, I don't know, I ask a very intangible kind of thing. Uh, we have let me follow up. It, it was Consummated. There was an agreement made that there would be no announcement, no public acknowledgment by either institution until such and such a date. When was

01:21:46.689 - 01:22:05.459

the agreement made? As I recall it was in late August or early September. Well, you see this raises a problem too if, if it were late August or early September, just because at the same time, there was a serious problem of, uh, the return of 8

01:22:05.470 - 01:22:25.229

to 10 athletes to the board and someone was spending his time scheduling more football instead of the res resolution of the serious communication problem that existed. And this would be, this would be a man's opinion. That's your opinion. Yes, I mean, that's what an athletic director

01:22:25.240 - 01:22:39.680

is supposed to do, isn't he in the midst of a racial crisis? The scheduling another game, I would say no. Well, I have to disagree with you. I mean, ii, I don't think that the man is so incapable whether it's Jim Deck or anybody else that,

01:22:39.689 - 01:22:50.939

that, uh, he can't, if he has an opportunity that's presented to him. I don't know anything about it. Now, I'm well without it, without, I mean, I, I was saying, I don't think he could, should say that he should schedule a game if the opportunity presents

01:22:50.950 - 01:23:08.600

it. So I would suggest it reflects, uh, reflects where the concern lies, whether it's in communication with the people on the team or the communication for more games. And uh I just like just in hearing this right now, I agree that hearing this right now, I'm

01:23:08.609 - 01:23:33.680

concerned, try again, you're talking about, have you, we have a new chancellor as of last year. Have you noticed any kind of change? Is there any uh do you sense any change in the relationship between the chancellor and the athletic governing board? Any change of chancellors?

01:23:34.560 - 01:23:49.129

I, I couldn't say that I have but uh really the chancellor met, does he meet with the board? Has he ever met with the board? There's the chancellor, neither chancellor has long. As long as I've been on the board, there may have been times when he

01:23:49.140 - 01:24:07.689

has, but Jim represents him and uh and I'm very capable, I think, and then so if there's ever been any need for him to, although I'm sure that he would, if we requested him to, he really hasn't been chancellor long enough. I really notice any change

01:24:07.700 - 01:24:23.009

and and I, I think also that he's had, he's had very serious problems at all chances. And basically, I think it's time has been devoted to those. As a matter of fact, he's indicated to us that we've made some recommendations, uh, with regard to, uh, certain

01:24:23.020 - 01:24:37.520

things that we felt were important. He's acknowledged the fact that they were, but, uh, apologize for, they've been sort of put on the back burner because he's had more critical problems in terms of what I heard. I raised the question obviously because uh a pattern of

01:24:37.529 - 01:24:57.330

operations of something like the governing board has grown up over the years. Frustration. Now, it would seem to be an opportunity not only because of the crisis that we've had, but there has been a change in administration to examine the role of this board. Um This

01:24:57.339 - 01:25:16.310

is anticipating, of course, what the board itself is gonna be discussing as you have indicated. But do you have any, what kind of suggestions would you have just informally for any reconstitution of the board? Or? Obviously, the charge is a very sweeping one. And what, what

01:25:16.319 - 01:25:35.580

would you suggest in the way of uh mode of operations or personnel on the board? I don't, I think the board, I don't really see any need for any reconstitution in terms of representative groups. There is one thing that I suggested. Uh and we just haven't

01:25:35.589 - 01:25:52.990

gotten to it because we just haven't had the time we've only met once since the time I I raised the suggestion, I think in as much as we are a board that is supposed to concern itself with policies of an operation of the athletic program in

01:25:53.000 - 01:26:16.060

Syracuse in as much as that board. A as that program obviously involves student ale as much as there are student represent, representatives on the board. And should be that, I think at least some segment of that student represented representation should come from the student athletes themselves

01:26:16.279 - 01:26:35.970

even. And I, I see no reason why, for example, in the spring of each year, and I'm not talking about scholarship that I'm talking about all athletes. Those uh individuals couldn't get together and elect uh a representative and an alternate. For example, if it were a

01:26:35.979 - 01:26:52.009

football player, it might be difficult for him to attend the meetings and probably all in it would attend. But some representative of the athletes about whom we're supposed to make a policy and uh concerning whom we, we, we're supposed to have responsibility, uh whether that should

01:26:52.020 - 01:27:07.229

be 50% of the student representation or 20%. I don't know, I think it certainly should be no less than 50%. And as much as we're, we're really governing them, so to speak, we're not governing them, but we're concerning ourselves. And I think that's a significant change

01:27:07.240 - 01:27:28.609

that should be made. Uh That's my own opinion. I, I haven't really haven't had a chance to talk about it. I don't think there'll be much argument with it among the, among the board members. I think it's a bit like that. There you go. Among the

01:27:28.620 - 01:27:44.890

things that, that this committee, our committee is supposed to be concerned with this. You have a statement of expectation for the black athletes. And among those things are some requests for use of the athletic governing board policy board as a uh a sounding board or a

01:27:44.899 - 01:28:02.129

final uh of problems that crop up. And another word that was used in that connection was a sensitivity. And one of the questions I wanna ask is, is how the board feels they could function in that role. Because certainly that's one of the things that, that,

01:28:02.140 - 01:28:17.439

that our committee will wanna recommend, recommend some statement. Well, uh let's do speak in a moment. It would be an, an unhappy role for us to assume because that would mean that the problem had gone beyond the coaches and the players. But if that is the

01:28:17.450 - 01:28:45.049

case, uh I can't think of any more appropriate group the hand. Well, I don't know how you feel. I I, ok, it gets beyond II, I can see you go on and out to the, um, more probing question about composition. Um, athletics from my point of

01:28:45.060 - 01:28:57.370

view is, is a, and the committee that governs it has to be a different kind of thing than many of the other committees on on campus. And that really, athletics is something that affects a large number of alumni, a large number of community members, it's entertainment

01:28:57.399 - 01:29:09.419

for people who have no connection with the university. Other than that, they might come to watch a lacrosse game or something like that. And so I think really a committee that governs athletics has to be uh representative of a different kind of a group than let's

01:29:09.430 - 01:29:24.970

say, a governance committee, something that and I wrote, written down a number of different categories of, of kinds of representatives. So I thought I'd like you to comment on whether you feel I should be members of the board and among them was uh active, active players.

01:29:24.979 - 01:29:39.799

And I was very happy to see you mention, but I've got uh possibly more faculty or students and possibly some community leaders. And I was just wondering uh if you could comment on the possibility of making it more representative of what really is a larger, do

01:29:39.810 - 01:29:58.600

you think it should be a larger board? Well, that's another question I wanna ask. I, I know it's not nice to have few boards. I know it may be necessary to have two. Is that all, all these numbers represent? I got it for 20 months, faculty

01:29:58.609 - 01:30:31.850

member that two members will board. A trustee. You have two members, the bar state club, you got two alumni members. I, I think that's no. So you talk about outside interests. Usually two members from the varsity and your two alumni members are fairly representative, members of

01:30:31.859 - 01:30:56.339

alumni university, fairly represented downtown people. So you feel like the community that is pretty well represented just by the nature of it? I do. I, I like the stew Math. That's so good at it. Would you suggest possibly uh expanding the board by uh by 21

01:30:56.350 - 01:31:35.310

or two student athletes? Perfect. Another thought to us with how my graduates. All right, who's the president of the Gran and Student building? I think they've got a graduate student, maybe one of your students. You know that mother, I'm glad to see we're pretty much and

01:31:37.350 - 01:31:56.120

you can recall the incident surrounding the uh a change made by the Board of Trustees on February 5th 1965. Does that apply to the makeup of the entire board or only to the fact that the vice president for student personnel would serve ex official as chairman?

01:31:57.220 - 01:32:39.279

I think, I think I missed the question, the composition of the board. There's a parent that says as directed by the Board of Trustees of Syracuse University on February 5th, 1965. And I wondered if that parent applied to the makeup of the board, uh at, at

01:32:39.290 - 01:33:03.560

the point, uh in 65 as I recall the situation, the decision was made in the chancellor's office that he would like the Chief Student Personnel Officer of the institution, whoever that might be and whatever type to serve as chairman of the ethnic governing board to provide

01:33:03.569 - 01:33:25.669

the link between the chancellor's office administratively and the board itself. And at that particular time, this was the title of the Chief personnel officer. What personally, I find it very strange that the chairman of a board would be ex officio to me that that was you

01:33:25.879 - 01:33:52.930

mean in regard to the responsibilities, the mean that he's on the board? I would call to your attention that me on this. I, I think, I think the idea here and this is not as unusual as you suggest. Really, Pauline is that when you appoint a

01:33:53.120 - 01:34:16.419

chief administrative officer for an area to the chairman, chief, you quite frequently do not permit him to vote because this is much too threatening to the constituencies that make up the commitment of leadership as an ex member. My experience is that I hear from the constituencies

01:34:16.430 - 01:34:49.910

if I do not behave appropriately like it or not. That's right, Pauline's got a very good point. You see if the board is subject to uh the chancellor and its chairman is subject to the chancellor administratively. Uh then the board can't operate independently to assign itself.

01:34:49.919 - 01:35:20.129

That's a very good point. I think Mr T I didn't see it. Why do you, how you say, why is it? It's a lovely way to. That's a, that's a good point. I'd like to answer a couple of questions. Correct, I think. Yeah, one of the

01:35:20.140 - 01:35:45.089

problems is them and sorry to say it when the board has been pledged, given very confidential information to pledge the secrecy. On many occasions. I've seen the newspaper the next day. You know, this is happening, for instance, for instance, well, I'm not, this is before your

01:35:45.100 - 01:36:06.350

time. I have no II I can remember four or five years back about the possibility of playing this team or not playing this team was discussed and bang her journal Television carriage was a leak on the board. I think this is one thing that from you

01:36:06.629 - 01:36:21.310

a little bit. Uh Yeah, I think you gotta give the des due and he didn't probably have a reason for not take, I think he should have taken the or into his continent. I think he should have announced that two of them. But I think this

01:36:21.319 - 01:36:49.200

is he was surprised at the newspaper report, the report you refer to. No, no, no, there's a different, different devil or something. I'm glad there's more than one night. There be more than one night. I come to your question. I don't think we've answered it. You

01:36:49.209 - 01:37:04.799

asked the question? Uh What are we gonna do about recruiting blacks next year? Should the board take a stand down this way? I think they should, I don't think we should say you've got to find five black football players or three blacks or seven blacks. All

01:37:04.810 - 01:37:21.020

I say is that you recruit, well, you recruit players if you can find the black players that can play football get inert if you go. Uh I, I don't think there's anyone on the board that wouldn't, that doesn't feel I'd say that question. I think I

01:37:21.029 - 01:37:38.120

was dealing with kind of a social psychological situation. Everybody has to have an opportunity to say your face. Uh, and, you know, but I feel amiss remiss if I didn't answer your, I don't think the answer. I, I appreciate hearing that because you can't, you know,

01:37:38.129 - 01:37:53.169

the coaching staff has taken the brunt of this thing and, uh, you've got to give the coaching staff some room to turn around and that means somebody else has to be there to give them some room to turn around. That's the, uh, that's, that's the reason

01:37:53.180 - 01:38:08.359

why I raised the issue with the board. Uh, if nobody's there to give them a little room to turn around, obviously, uh, you can ask people to repent, but after a while they, they can't repent but so much, you know, they're gonna have to say, give

01:38:08.370 - 01:38:19.450

me a little bit more help in doing this and the athletic boards, uh, seem to need it. As you said, it would be a good arbitrating situation. It's a good group to give some help to the coaching staff. I got one more question. I, no great

01:38:19.660 - 01:38:43.839

this to you. You ask what the athletic board and athletics is charged with. I wonder what this woman is charged. So, here's my question. I'd like to know we should have been more than that. It is certainly the two statements and the press releases like the,

01:38:45.950 - 01:39:12.120

I don't know very much about racism, but I the I cannot quote it verbatim, but there are two press releases that establish the charge to this committee. The first indicates that the committee will investigate alleged racial discrimination on the football team. The second indicates that the

01:39:12.129 - 01:39:23.890

committee will review and detail the statement of expectations, which is a document that was filed with the chancellor's office uh by the Black A.